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I created this thread to discuss elastic effect (EE), which is IMO very important when training players, especially for U21 and NT. There is a lot of opinions on which skills are connected that are scattered through forums, so I wanted to gather all the "knowledge" all in one place. I'm also training U21 players and maybe I could find some help in this thread with training my future NT SF.

What is elastic effect?: Elastic effect occurs where two related skills are very far apart; the lower skill will train faster and the higher skill will train slower. The closer those two abilities get, the smaller elastic effect is. The question is, which skills are related?

Before starting, is it possible that each skills gains EE from skills it trains as secondaries? For example: OD trains HA, DR and ID as secondaries - is it possible OD gains EE just from those three skills?

So...:

JS: It seems like it gains elastic effect by having high JR. Does anybody have any proof that JS can gain EE also from DR or HA?

JR: Gains EE from JS (obvious), but there have been claims from Chinese U21 trainers that OD has significant impact on speed of JR training. One user reported double pop in JR where OD was around 8-10 levels higher than JR, while player was 20-21y old. What about HA and DR?

OD: Quite sure it gets its EE from HA, but not much else.

HA: As someone who doesn't train HA 1-position, but watch it pops only via 1v1 and as a secondary training, the question that bothered me the most was if 1v1 was subjected to EE? Let's say you have JR, OD and PA on Respectable and HA, DR and JS on Atrocious. Does HA, DR and JS train faster with 1v1?

DR: Basically same question as HA...

PA: I guess the only EE PA can gain from are DR and HA. Not much information about that.

Now the Bigs' skill; as I've been training only guards, this will be a bit shorter.

IS: Probably affected by ID and RB only?

ID: RB and SB? What about IS? If you have abilities like IS 1, ID 7, RB 15 and SB 15 - will ID gain EE or not?

RB: ID, IS and SB? There has been a claim from a German user few seasons ago that his player experienced double pop after whole season of IS training (the player was 19-y old and very tall).

SB: Probably ID and RB only?

These questions are important because they help with training. If you set up the elastic effect, you can have better results in my opinion. Take this example, you have a rookie:

JS: 3 JR: 7
OD: 7 HA: 3
DR: 3 PA 7

Before training any of OD, JR or PA, it's advisable to train 1v1 for at least half a season first.

I know USA U21 instructions tell us a U21 player should train 1-position exclusively in his first three seasons and that you are unlucky if you started with bad secondaries. I disagree here and think almost any guard training should begin with at least few weeks of 1 on 1 training (unless OD, PA and/or JR are much lower than JS, HA and DR of course).

Let me finish here for now, I'd be really glad to see your contributions!

Last edited by Koperboy at 10/5/2011 7:23:19 AM

Poll:  Are you considering Elastic Effect when training your players?

I agree. From my limited experience, you need at least 10 OD trainings to get a HA pop. But tell me, how tall were your trainees and what ratio was between levels of OD and DR/HA?

Last edited by Koperboy at 10/5/2011 8:54:21 AM

My opinion is that elastic effect isn't important ;-)
It isn't hard statement, only loose and careful hypothesis.
.

What is elastic effect?: Elastic effect occurs where two related skills are very far apart; the lower skill will train faster and the higher skill will train slower. The closer those two abilities get, the smaller elastic effect is. The question is, which skills are related?

If relation is bilateral and symmetrical then if we want to train skill X faster it means that skill Y has to be higher and... skill Y has to be trained slower ;-) So if we want to gain time to train skill X it means that earlier we have to lose time to train skill Y ;-)
So it means that order of training doesn't matter.

If relation isn't symmetrical, then there exists chance that there exist better and worse sequences of training.

If relation is bilateral and symmetrical then if we want to train skill X faster it means that skill Y has to be higher and... skill Y has to be trained slower ;-) So if we want to gain time to train skill X it means that earlier we have to lose time to train skill Y ;-)

This is true. If you start with a player who has all skills on Respectable, there isn't any EE. From my experience, in such situation would be the best to train 1 on 1 so DR and HA reach 2 levels of skills above OD, JR and PA and then train those to gain maximum effect out of EE. This is true for a guard of course.

But if you have two players, let's say...

Player 1: OD 3, HA 8, DR 8

Player 2: OD 8, HA 4, DR 4

which one would you take? I'd take P1, because not only OD would train faster and gain on P2, but HA and DR are also important for PA and JR el. effect.

Last edited by Koperboy at 10/5/2011 9:23:46 AM

I share your idea. Additionally, with the introduction of cross-training this season, forcing one type of training for too long with a plan to create "enormous" elastic effect on related skills for future training can turn out to be a very bad plan. Not only that you are facing the negative elastic effect with the skills distancing too far from the related (you explained that), now this distancing means 1) more than 10% subtraction from the speed of the primary training for the purpose of cross-training (slower training) and 2) more then 10% training to unrelated skills for a training type (more than 10% random in a training plan).

I figure the purpose of the elastic effect was to have well-rounded players, and so I try to keep skills relatively close together. I trust the BBs in developing a system that encourages well-rounded players since I don't feel I'm even close to figuring out the particulars. But I do try to include what little I know when considering what players to pick from the TL.

Well rounded playes are surely most effective salary-wise. But elastic effect doesn't only help players to become well-rounded, it also helps to maintain training speed. For example, I'm training JR for more than half a season now and my trainee popped every two weeks regularly. But now his JR level came just one level under JS, HA and DR. I should train 1 on 1 for two weeks now before proceeding with JR, but I didn't. What happened was my trainee didn't pop in JR for third straight week. If I would take into account elastic effect, JR wouldn't slow down.

Last edited by Koperboy at 10/11/2011 1:40:37 AM

i think he hoped, that the elastic effect works in is favour when he keep skills close together, instead of training against the elastic effect and to profit aftrwards from it. I also hope that it is that way, even when i also could imagine that driving/handling, maybe training first could help the general training speed.

Which is optional i don't know.

I see that. If you keep the skills together, you don't have negative elastic effect, but you also don't profit from any skill that is higher (I know that in order to get to that higher skill, you have to take into account negative EE).

driving/handling, maybe training first could help the general training speed.

That's exactly what I'm promoting (for guards and forwards, not for centers): 1 on 1 for forwards is the way to generate elastic effect.