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Discussion about depth charts

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263578.3 in reply to 263578.2
Date: 10/15/2014 9:21:50 AM
Overall Posts Rated:
32293229
I will say what I've been saying since I started open my fool mouth on the boards here. I think that there should be substitution options per position, with one option being to try to balance out the minutes, one option being to play the starter exclusively (or if they truly want to kill the 48 minute option, just "as much as possible"), one option being to have the coach do whatever he thinks best.

One of my major pet peeves has always been that if you want to have a fairly balanced minute rotation, and you have backups close to the quality of your starter, you better have low stamina or have a blowout because otherwise the starter will always go close to 40 minutes and the backup less than 10. I still remember having two players that I used at the PF or C position depending on my matchups that both had strong stamina and whichever one started always went 40+ minutes if he didn't get injured or foul out. I would have preferred closer to a 24-24 split, and even a 30-18 would have been nice, but it was impossible to even get 36-12. But when an injury occurred, especially in the second game where the starters had been switched, suddenly you've got a guy playing 80+ minutes in that week when with a reasonable sub pattern, he could have still been likely under 72.

I also think it would be nice to be able to designate a depth chart for each position, so that you can set contingencies for injury/foulout situations so that a perfectly good guard doesn't sit on the bench while a backup C comes in to play PG after an injury and a foulout.

Obviously, there's a lot of things that can be done and limited development time, and how much complexity can be added and still leave the game accessible is always a concern. But if some of the substitution options have been broken since time immemorial, and if the blank lineup is going to be removed, I think it's definitely valuable to consider reworking the system rather than patch it up a little.

This Post:
11
263578.4 in reply to 263578.3
Date: 10/15/2014 4:29:18 PM
TrenseRI
II.1
Overall Posts Rated:
36183618
Second Team:
ChiLeaders
All valid points raised by both of you. While I understand that the game engine doesn't really handle minutes very well, I guess it isn't really supposed to. This game is meant to be challenging and make you think and find solutions to handling your minutes better, not just implement a magic feature that will allow you to limit the minutes per player/position. If those above mentioned solutions are logical and make sense, then we're doing our job right, if not, then... you get the picture.

The stamina effect is a perfect example; high stamina players accumulate more minutes per week and it hurts their game shape. That doesn't make sense and we addressed that last season by introducing the stamina factor in the game shape training. Has it helped? I think it has, subjectively. My high stamina players have kept their game shape up most of the time.

On the other hand, I'm not rejecting the possibility of implementing some new things for minute management if they make sense and don't make that aspect of the game too easy. Another example, substitutions after injuries; they can hurt your rotation badly. This needs to be fixed, I agree, but isn't it better to fix it by just making the code put that guard in the game instead of the center rather than adding an option that would do that indirectly?

While making a completely new substitution system would be great, it's unnecessary (this one works fine in most cases, therefore I prefer fixing the cases in which it doesn't) and unrealistic (given the coding resources atm, which are basically - yours truly ).

The training system is another thing. I must say I don't see it as unrealistic or "crappy" as Trainerman does. This is a game and it can't fully simulate real life, but that might be beside your point. Would like to hear how you'd improve it though.

Now, I'd like to address some of the concerns pointed out in the "Testing the empty lineup prevention code" thread, specifically the three posts starting here (259887.136) (if you don't mind me hijacking this thread now). So, the following mainly goes to Yuck and Hoosier.

1. Fixing the economy
Easier said than done. I am aware of it's imbalances. Your trainees reaching enormous prices and old, very much useful players, going for peanuts. The cause for them? Well, a combination of things, of course. Young players are attractive, have low salaries and have that "I made that guy" appeal. And they pay off over the seasons by actually playing for the team, while still keeping the bulk of their value. That means that they *do* payoff in the long run. They can improve during a season while their salary remains the same, while the same thing applies to the old guys but the other way around. Also, no one likes to see those red arrows week in and week out. Another thing, old high salary players have been flooding the market for quite some time now. Since we're bleeding users, the number of teams being able to buy them is also shrinking.

I hate to see that too, but what can we do? The obvious solutions have long term ramifications that might throw the game even more off balance. Just like your "more high talent draftees" suggestion. What happens in a couple of seasons? Or in ten seasons? Fifteen? All of those players will eventually grow old and (probably) make the old player problem even worse. You see, it's not that simple.

2. PL forums
Would a link to the dedicated PL thread on the PL page satisfy you? Or even something like we have on normal league pages?

3. Simple search
Simple? Yes. Fixable? In a word: no. There are limits to our hardware and databases of which I don't want to go into. Frustrating? Yes.


This Post:
00
263578.8 in reply to 263578.5
Date: 10/16/2014 12:16:58 PM
TrenseRI
II.1
Overall Posts Rated:
36183618
Second Team:
ChiLeaders
I like some of your comments and ideas about training, you might be onto something there. It's simple, deals with a frustrating (well, mostly) part of the game, makes sense and is based on some sound real life logic. I'll discuss it with my colleagues, see what they think.

On the other hand, your comments about Batum as an example for position switching between a starting position and a backup on Sf and both SG and PF can't really be used as a typical RL situation. It's more of a rarity that a player can play 3 positions and does so in one match. I don't think we should use him as an example on what we're trying to simulate here. Also, it cannot be implemented in the BB game engine without some major re-coding.
I agree partly that backup players should be able to cover two positions better, in some kind of a sixth man role. But that's also very complicated to do (read: unrealistic), and would actually string along a lot of other consequences (training minutes, roster depth,...) which would need to be addressed.

From: Yuck

This Post:
11
263578.10 in reply to 263578.5
Date: 10/17/2014 1:08:28 AM
Cassville Yuck
III.3
Overall Posts Rated:
555555
Second Team:
Yuckville Cass
At some point you have to also view this as a game. To completely replicate real life would be extremely difficult and actually not that much fun. However, some minor training additions could make training for competitive teams more feasible. Namely out of position training. If you want to train you guard trainee up in inside shot, currently your options are to train him in the front court inside training or at a forward position one on one or JS. The more competitive teams would find this difficult and win games.

I think you should be able to train any skill at any position. If you want to train inside scoring while playing pg, have at it. This could easily be done with percentage modifiers. Say your trainee at age 22 gets .40 of a sub level at one position inside scoring. He would get .14 of a sub at one of the forward training skills. Why not let him get .15 single position at pg? He wouldn't get nearly as much level up as if he had done the training at center but that is the trade off for training him in position but out of position.