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Catching up on an active thread …
BB-Ryan says:

The problem with this statement is that a competitive, salary efficient team from a large nation does not look like a competitive, salary efficient team from a smaller nation.

…which throws into question the one-size-fits-all measure that was employed. If the nations are so different, isn’t it better to acknowledge and address those differences than to paint them all with the same brush?

GM-hrudey says something similar:

Small nations are of course another issue and frankly I agree that if there are only two or one levels for a country, this is a much more significant problem. But that's an issue that you know and I know that has been an issue for years and will probably be an issue until the micronation experience is completely revamped, but of course I hesitate to say that word in the forums much because it tends to also lead to explosions in post volume. ;)

Another disagreement with painting everyone with the same brush. Should tanking have been the first priority, or evening out the BB experience from nation to nation? Did the wrong perceived problem get hit?

If this had been the only change regarding the economy in the past several seasons, of course, it would have been inadequate to address many of the issues currently ongoing with the economy. It might have helped slightly - money not added to those teams who have significant cash but choose to still operate at a minimum salary level is money that is unavailable to them to drive up the price of players when they wake up from hiberation.

But this, instead, was a targeted specifically for those teams who are just spending a minimum amount and not being competitive, or those who can be competitive because of the lack of competition in their league. It does have collateral damage for those who can compete in actual strong leagues with low salaries (I've been that in the past), and small nation users after 16 weeks.

There was also the recent change to free agency, which is supposed to try to somewhat aid in stabilizing prices for a specific segment of players, the vast majority of which are the ones that the vast majority of teams in this game would consider useful. It's still only a band-aid, as free agency is still a very insignificant part of the transfer market overall, but it's some progress.

There's also been a recent change to severely curtail the strategy of accumulating insane wealth and then just buying a team to win a title.

Although not directly an economical change, the 18 year old with allstar potential for a new team is definitely a nice bonus. Teams still need to add at minimum another trainee, and of course if they don't train it's small benefit - but having a homegrown player with the merchandise boost that leads to is nice.

The point is that you're correct, one-size-fits-all doesn't always fit. Expecting one component in a set of changes to itself be a fix for all issues is an equally untenable standard. Whether the salary floor is the *ideal* fix for the specific issue of tanking is of course a matter of opinion. It does also address in a small way the advantages inherent in being an established team in a small nation, where a minimum salary team can thrive, but it hurts those who are newly registered in some very small nations and those who are able to be competitive in very competitive leagues very cheaply. When you look at the whole, the tanking issue is a widespread concern affecting a lot of users, while draining the high-end micronation teams probably only affects other opposition in B3. The ones who are hurt, while unfortunately a non-zero number, are at least a minimal amount comparatively: newer teams in micronations and the best low level guys. For most people, the changes do no harm and improve the balance overall, which is the criteria I imagine the BB staff would look at.

When you look at the whole, the tanking issue is a widespread concern affecting a lot of users

While we're on the topic of salary floor increase as a partial remedy to tanking ... let me ask, who are these "lot of users" you're talking about? Who is actually hurt by tanking, other than the tankers themselves? Is tanking a problem in and of itself or merely a symptom of a more deep-rooted problem? (Move this question and start a new thread for this if you feel it's necessary).

While we're on the topic of salary floor increase as a partial remedy to tanking ... let me ask, who are these "lot of users" you're talking about?

Me. I make a lot of money while being competitive. I spend the salary floor (plus an extra $10k). Should I be targeted by the floor increase? Absolutely. Am I? No.

Who is actually hurt by tanking, other than the tankers themselves?

Everyone, including tankers. Its what drives inflation. The longer I can profit from not promoting, the more money I have to drive up prices when I'm ready to spend.

Is tanking a problem in and of itself or merely a symptom of a more deep-rooted problem?

Both.

Last edited by Perriwinkle Blue at 2/24/2016 3:00:20 PM

When you look at the whole, the tanking issue is a widespread concern affecting a lot of users

While we're on the topic of salary floor increase as a partial remedy to tanking ... let me ask, who are these "lot of users" you're talking about? Who is actually hurt by tanking, other than the tankers themselves? Is tanking a problem in and of itself or merely a symptom of a more deep-rooted problem? (Move this question and start a new thread for this if you feel it's necessary).

It's the game itself - when eschewing playing the game at all for seasons at a time to build up money becomes or is even perceived to have become a top strategy, the game is screwed.

I just did a search for the word "tanking" in this forum, and ordered by date. It allows me to pull up 100 posts only, and that goes back as far as late November. Did the same for "inflation" and it went back to May. Now, obviously, this thread had quite a few hits, but it surprised me - I was just expecting to see that tanking and inflation are both mentioned a lot as problems, in roughly equal amounts.

It's the game itself - when eschewing playing the game at all for seasons at a time to build up money becomes or is even perceived to have become a top strategy, the game is screwed. 

It is a top strategy. As long as the system allows it, it will continue.

What if to reward salary efficient teams, teams below the salary floor were able to make back the money they lost by being under the salary floor through their playoff performance. ie lets say my team lost 200k from being under the floor. If I make the playoffs I'll get 25% of that money back. If I make the semis I'll get 50% and if I win the championship I get 100% of that money back. Since this systems may reward teams in noncompetitive leagues or smaller nations, the percentages a team receives back could be adjusted depending on the division their in and their nations size.

When you look at the whole, the tanking issue is a widespread concern affecting a lot of users

While we're on the topic of salary floor increase as a partial remedy to tanking ... let me ask, who are these "lot of users" you're talking about? Who is actually hurt by tanking, other than the tankers themselves? Is tanking a problem in and of itself or merely a symptom of a more deep-rooted problem? (Move this question and start a new thread for this if you feel it's necessary).

It's the game itself - when eschewing playing the game at all for seasons at a time to build up money becomes or is even perceived to have become a top strategy, the game is screwed.

Hmm ... "the game itself." Sorry, but that might be just a wee bit too vague and metaphysical to further constructive conversation. We could similarly condemn eschewing competing in the game at all for seasons at a time to build up trainees to sell for money, and say that training is bad for the game itself. We could pretty much apply that to anything -- daytrading is bad for "the game itself." Vulgar team names. Anything. That's all just opinion.

I'm looking for something a little more concrete. Here's my thinking -- suppose you and BB-Ryan have a point. What if the raise in the salary floor didn't hurt as many managers as badly as many first believed, as you and BB-Ryan argue. Then who did it help by supposedly countering tanking? Who is hurt by tanking? Any users at all, or it just doesn't fit your mental image of what you want for BB?

When you look at the whole, the tanking issue is a widespread concern affecting a lot of users

While we're on the topic of salary floor increase as a partial remedy to tanking ... let me ask, who are these "lot of users" you're talking about? Who is actually hurt by tanking, other than the tankers themselves? Is tanking a problem in and of itself or merely a symptom of a more deep-rooted problem? (Move this question and start a new thread for this if you feel it's necessary).

It's the game itself - when eschewing playing the game at all for seasons at a time to build up money becomes or is even perceived to have become a top strategy, the game is screwed.

Hmm ... "the game itself." Sorry, but that might be just a wee bit too vague and metaphysical to further constructive conversation. We could similarly condemn eschewing competing in the game at all for seasons at a time to build up trainees to sell for money, and say that training is bad for the game itself. We could pretty much apply that to anything -- daytrading is bad for "the game itself." Vulgar team names. Anything. That's all just opinion.

I'm looking for something a little more concrete. Here's my thinking -- suppose you and BB-Ryan have a point. What if the raise in the salary floor didn't hurt as many managers as badly as many first believed, as you and BB-Ryan argue. Then who did it help by supposedly countering tanking? Who is hurt by tanking? Any users at all, or it just doesn't fit your mental image of what you want for BB?

Well, on the concept of "the good of the game" I figure that making the game better overall is and always should be the primary goal. But if that concept is too general, the teams being hurt by tanking are the teams who are playing the game as an actual management sim, who are attempting to progress through the game by competing to the best of their abilities as often as viable, rather than looking at the game as an exercise in collecting cash by either low salaries or high volume player trading (or, often both). It's exactly those teams that are negatively effected when a team promotes, collects cash for a year, and then promotes and spends those gains to buy a title and repeat the cycle again. Plus, of course, the people who have seen this and decided that they need to do the same to progress further are hurt because they stop experiencing this as a game and more of logging in to pass time while the long-term grind goes on.

I don't see how increasing the salary floor hurts retention among new users and I think making the teams that are trying to stay lean more competitive with the teams trying to promote makes for a better game in general. This increase in the salary floor is too small to matter much though.

I joined the game just before last season and my only issue with the salary floor increase is it made me use the TL which is usually a frustrating experience.

What hurts retention among new users is how frustrating it is to upgrade your players from the automatically generated dreck comprising the roster of a new team. 99.9% of the initial roster is useless. The TL is expensive and frustrating. And training is difficult to figure out at first as well.

Frankly, if you want to do something to encourage new users to stick around for whatever benefits you see that accomplishing, forget the 18 yo all-star talent and give the TSP's of the randomly generated roster a 10-20% boost. Make so they can actually be a tiny bit competitive out of the box.

Finances don't impact whether a new user sticks around. If it's not fun, or seems overly complicated, they bail.

Thank you for the discussion to my matter and all the assistance. I am ready now to fight.

I will report after 16 weeks are over.

Well, on the concept of "the good of the game" I figure that making the game better overall is and always should be the primary goal.

If thats the case and I strongly believe that from the BB side there is will to improve the game, now that Ryan is on board, there need to be specific solutions for specific situations.

A general haircut won't solve the tanking problem, which from my point of view is a non issue basically. What you gain is less than what you lose, the draft is no incentive to be bad and the narrative always was that demotion costs more than bottom feeding in a higher division. Now tanking is presented as the uber strategy, which is quite strange to understand...

"Making the game better overall" could have been done with many different changes, which of course, consume much more effort and time. Changing five arbitraty numbers (percentages DIV I-IV) is the quickest way to "solve" the problem, but in this case I think we are oversteering in the wrong direction once again.