BuzzerBeater Forums

Ray on čet lis 13, 2011 1:03 pm

Neda mi vrag mira zašto je mom Mimici (21g. superstar) trebalo 4 tjedna da digne vanjsku obranu, i nakon što sam detaljnije proučio promjene i iskustva drugih kod nove vrste treninga došao sam do zaključka da je elastic effect drastično pojačan s novim cross treningom...prije je to bio faktor koji se uglavnom mogao zanemariti, osim u extremnim slućajevima, no od ove sezone je postao faktor s kojim treba ozbiljno računati ako se ne želi trošiti tjedne treninga uludo...

Isto tako je zaključak da se većina skilova veže na ulaz (driving) i kontrolu lopte (handling) jer su ti skilovi sekundarci pri treningu većine vanjskih skilova i nekih unutarnjih...isto tako vidim da su sekundarci jako ovisni o odnosu prema drugim skilovima i da je uglavnom došlo do usporavanja rasta sekundaraca u nekim slućajevima i na preko 1:10...

S tim saznanjima je isprobano slijedeće...mladim trenircima (bekovi, 18g) je kao uvodni trening stavljeno 2-3-4 tjedna 1na1 kako bi se napravila razlika u odnosu na ostale skilove što je rezultiralo čak i skokovima u vanjskoj obrani ili šutu po dva tjedna u nizu...

Moje iskustvo je slijedeće...Mimici je trebalo 2 tjedna da digne OD s 10 na 11, 3 tjedna s 11 na 12 i konačno 4 tjedna s 12 na 13...razlika je očita i prevelika da bude slućajno...u isto vrijeme je idući najviši skil bio ulaz na 11, skok šut na 10 i kontrola lopte na 9...

Dakle, što se više OD udaljavala od ostalih skilova trening se produžavao...pogotovo kad je iskočio na +2 od prvog slijedećeg skila...

Sad sam mu trenirao ID i skočio je normalno za dva tjedna jer je skil relativno nizak (5 na 6)...znaći da nije problem ni u igraču ni u treneru...problem je u tome da još ne kužimo dovoljno novi trening...

Zaključak je slijedeći...više neće biti moguće trenirati vanjske igrače (PG, SG, SF) bez jakog ulaza i kontrole lopte...a monoskilna čudovišta možemo zaboraviti...
Trenutno tvrdnja ide prema tome da vanjski skilovi nisu vezani na unutarnje i obratno, no to još nije isprobano ni provjereno...

Ovdje prenosim cijeli text sa BB foruma na engleskom...uglavnom pretpostavka koji skilovi su vezani na koje s objašnjenjem...

I created this thread to discuss elastic effect (EE), which is IMO very important when training players, especially for U21 and NT. There is a lot of opinions on which skills are connected that are scattered through forums, so I wanted to gather all the "knowledge" all in one place. I'm also training U21 players and maybe I could find some help in this thread with training my future NT SF.

What is elastic effect?: Elastic effect occurs where two related skills are very far apart; the lower skill will train faster and the higher skill will train slower. The closer those two abilities get, the smaller elastic effect is. The question is, which skills are related?

Before starting, is it possible that each skills gains EE from skills it trains as secondaries? For example: OD trains HA, DR and ID as secondaries - is it possible OD gains EE just from those three skills?

So...:

JS: It seems like it gains elastic effect by having high JR. Does anybody have any proof that JS can gain EE also from DR or HA?

JR: Gains EE from JS (obvious), but there have been claims from Chinese U21 trainers that OD has significant impact on speed of JR training. One user reported double pop in JR where OD was around 8-10 levels higher than JR, while player was 20-21y old. What about HA and DR?

OD: Quite sure it gets its EE from HA, but not much else.

HA: As someone who doesn't train HA 1-position, but watch it pops only via 1v1 and as a secondary training, the question that bothered me the most was if 1v1 was subjected to EE? Let's say you have JR, OD and PA on Respectable and HA, DR and JS on Atrocious. Does HA, DR and JS train faster with 1v1?

DR: Basically same question as HA...

PA: I guess the only EE PA can gain from are DR and HA. Not much information about that.

Now the Bigs' skill; as I've been training only guards, this will be a bit shorter.

IS: Probably affected by ID and RB only?

ID: RB and SB? What about IS? If you have abilities like IS 1, ID 7, RB 15 and SB 15 - will ID gain EE or not?

RB: ID, IS and SB? There has been a claim from a German user few seasons ago that his player experienced double pop after whole season of IS training (the player was 19-y old and very tall).

SB: Probably ID and RB only?

These questions are important because they help with training. If you set up the elastic effect, you can have better results in my opinion. Take this example, you have a rookie:

JS: 3 JR: 7
OD: 7 HA: 3
DR: 3 PA 7

Before training any of OD, JR or PA, it's advisable to train 1v1 for at least half a season first.

I know USA U21 instructions tell us a U21 player should train 1-position exclusively in his first three seasons and that you are unlucky if you started with bad secondaries. I disagree here and think almost any guard training should begin with at least few weeks of 1 on 1 training (unless OD, PA and/or JR are much lower than JS, HA and DR of course).

I drugi post koji mi je pomogao da shvatim neke stvari...

Everything in BB works on curvs. So instead of like +5 = +5% where +1 = +1% its more like +5 = +20% and +1 =+0.5%

I think its something like this (amount of skill difference followed by percent bonus)
1 +.05
2 + 4
3 +9
4 +16
5 +20
6 +22.5
7 +23.75
8 +24.5
9 +25.
10 +25.01

Just very ruff estimate.... The percentage which is given is not taken from the secondary skills. There simply is not a bonus to the secondary skills and their amount of increase is by default pretty low.

Then I think in reverse when its a negative the amount of speed lost is given to the secondary skills as a bonus.

The issue is base speed differentials and how skills relate. now that crosstraining is added its a whole 'nother level of slowing and speeding up.

So like if its OD training then tis a comparison of OD versus ID,HA &DR. If OD is highest it will be slowed and a percentage of what is not seen as OD pops will be spread between the 3. OD is already slow, and what you lose is given as a very small amount to 2 skills HA/DR which train pretty fast, so its kinda like throwing away training if you think about it.

HA/DR are based on eachother and IS,JS,JR depending which 1on1 you train. Or OD if you do handles training PG. So it creates a squencing scenario. OD is tied to HA/DR/ID when trained pressure, and HA is tied to it when you train handles.

This creates certain skills which no matter what are not really increased by other skills too much and or train pretty fast anyway so its not a big issue, actually a benefit to get secondary pop over primary pop for that skill, since it trains faster than its secondary, if that makes sense.

Ok well I probably lost you somewhere along the way, best to explain with numbers I guess.

Lets say DR base for 1on1 is like .5, and that is in a two position mode. Even one position OD is only like .4 .
If you train DR 10 weeks, and it ends up the highest skill, it gets slowed to like .4 maybe towards the end (really it never goes that slow). The .1 you lose goes to IS and JS anyway...so not a big loss!!!!!. now when you train OD, lets say 10 weeks its speed is upped to .5 from .4 .

If you start with OD training, its gonna get held back by low HA/DR (Im ignoring Id for now but I'll throw in a tidbit about it later) and go as low as .3 by the last couple pops (if you go 10 weeks)

People wont see that maybe DR/HA/ID pops from a slowed OD training, cuz it starts arleady like slow .4 and you get a small percentage of that, maybe 10 or 20% divided between 3 skills... thats .04/3 or like .12/3 and people will say it takes 10 weeks to get the pop, and that is about right.

So if you did OD first 10 weeks, then 1on1 10 weeks= you get 3~4 OD pops
If you train 1on1 first, then OD, you probably get 5+. I got 2 pops in a row on my 19 y/o in OD because I set up elastic effect. If you find anyone with a 6'5'' player popping 2 weeks in a row in OD when OD is highest stat, higher than ID,HR,DR let me know!!!!! I doN7t think its possilbe. Only possible with elastic effect. 2 pops in a row means a minimum training speed of .51. Some peopel take 3 weeks to pop OD, even at like 18. That means max speed.48. but its more likely I have around .55 and more people are around .4 even when young if OD is hest stat. Its around 10% speed bonus I think if they are apart by even 2 and I think around 10% penatly the opposite direction.

The extra DR/HA pops you might get fro training OD first, even if symetrical in teh application, are not as valuable as the OD pops since DR already trains faster. 1 OD pop is worth about 1.5 to 2 DR pops because of the base training speeds difference.

hvala na opsirnom objasnjenju, sad mi je elastic effect puno jasniji

Još bi pridodao da su tu neki skilovi vezani za druge, a neki ne...uglavnom to nekako ide vanjski s vanjskima, a unutarnji s unutarnjima...a dodavanja jedina nisu vezana za ništa...

Još bi pridodao da su tu neki skilovi vezani za druge, a neki ne...uglavnom to nekako ide vanjski s vanjskima, a unutarnji s unutarnjima...a dodavanja jedina nisu vezana za ništa...

dodavanja su isto tako vezana za vodjenje i ulaz

Uglavnom, kad se trenira dodavanje - to trenira malo i vođenje i ulaz što znači da tu ima elastic effecta. Zato je antonio imao dobar napredak s dodavanjem.

Pa u biti vođenje i ulaz su dosta jaki sekundarci kod treninga dodavanja, ali to ne znači da obavezno ima elastic efekta ovdje...