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U21 National Team Debate Thread (thread closed)

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242993.118 in reply to 242993.117
Date: 6/12/2013 6:46:05 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
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Well in Div III and Div IV there are many weeks where you have 3asy games. Playing a guy out of position and defending in position is not a huge deal. You can;t do it all the time but its doable. Getting a guy with 12 core skills will be a big deal for a lot of newer teams. They will not cost 50k and buying a guy like that will cost a lot more then training.
I won games I had my PF playing PG still. Win is a win.

Are you saying no one in Div IV or Div III should training guys for the 21 NT side? And that guys in Div II and ABBL should not be able to do so? So only tankers should be training guys? Just trying to understand your position.

People in lower divisions can train guys for the 21 NT side and it also work for their teams. how much do most these sides spend on buying players with poor builds because they have a couple of high level stats?

Their teams needs can be meet while still training a guy for the 21 Nt side. I know my guy is my best player atm and came 4th in MVP voting even playing PG a fair bit during the season. Unless you are totally focused on promoting each season I don't see the issue.

Teams starting our can train a guy for 21 NT side with more mono skills and he would get and keep them in DIv III and then finish his training before trying to move up to Div II. Too many teams IMO promote quickly and are not ready for moving up to the next level and drop back again. Which for me seems a waste. I prefer to take my time and build slower and when moving up stay at the next level. I am currently training 3 guys. My PF and 2 Gs. As they get more complete I am hoping they are the core of my side when I make ABBL. The PF is joining in as the 3rd G trainee and when he drops off I will be getting a SF to join in also and then go back to bigs and train a couple of Cs with him and I will have 6 guys I trained being the main part of my side. Buy a couple of new guys and I'm ready to make ti to the top.

Teams in Div IV can start working towards getting their side together and training a guy for the 21 NT side can fit into that and also give them more enjoyment and involvement in the game. I am totally against new sides training complete mono skills guys but they can still work towards a 21 NT players. And even if they don't make it they can learn from trying to do it. Where else can these guys get help with their builds?

From: Leeroy

This Post:
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242993.119 in reply to 242993.110
Date: 6/12/2013 11:13:20 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
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I'll give you my definition of a NT manager, even if nobody cares :p
- set the line up
- select the worthy players
- save the high potential and talented ones from going bot
- let people know about the skills of the NT players
- discuss the tactics if someone is interested

That's a simplistic and basic overview of what an U21 Coaches job is.

What I would want from my U21 Coach is all of the above plus:
- Consistent contact with players coaches regarding Game Shape and training plans
- Scouting players, Rival U21 Teams and tactics
- Updates of how the team is going in the BB-Forums
- Firm grasp of training tactics (elastic effects)

I only really know 2 of the candidates through the fishbowl, however I did stay in contact with Mickyster regarding his U21 player when I was coach for 2 seasons.

I hope that you guys take into account what I've said, as I have been in the position before. You may find the workload quite troublesome at times and feel like you don't receive the respect that you deserve. Most likely you'll find one manager in particular that will question your every move and drive you insane (Cough-Latino-Cough). But other than that, it's an honor to be an NT manager, especially from your home country.

This Post:
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242993.120 in reply to 242993.119
Date: 6/13/2013 12:10:07 AM
Overall Posts Rated:
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It is a lot of work. And a lot once one has the job with a limited time to do an scouting of our players. Thankfully I can take a couple of days off next week if I win to get a lot done early.

From: ezlife

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242993.121 in reply to 242993.119
Date: 6/13/2013 3:29:59 AM
Overall Posts Rated:
127127
You didn't add anything to that list (scouting is a part of setting the line up). Game shape and training plan, that's because you're a nice guy. It's out of your hands.

@ Mickyster: okay, you might win game with your monoskilled 50k PF playing at PG in d3. But again, my 3k guy can perform just as well. That means I could also win games with him and that I can spare 47k per week doing so. From here on I'm free to use it the way I want. If I'm playing crap teams, I could either spare it so as to buy that 47k guy when I'll need him or eventually pay a better trainer (no, you're not gonna pay 800k for a level 6-7 trainer that you can afford with your 50k guy // I can pay less for a more expensive high level trainer 40 - 60k salary).

I'm not saying people can't train their players for the U21. I'm saying that what is usually recommended is financially highly unadvisable.

This Post:
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242993.122 in reply to 242993.121
Date: 6/13/2013 3:41:08 AM
Overall Posts Rated:
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He is far from mono skilled. There are a lot of mono skilled guys and that is why the 21 NT teams can have lots of C and SG/PG and little or no PF and SFs. MY guy is better passer then some of my Gs and others then low Jr is a bit better then a 3k trainee.
As for trainers unless you have a HoF guy you want in the NT and hqve heaps of cash I suggest most teams never get more then a level 5 trainer and should think level 4 is enough for almost all teams. According to the stats level 4 is the best value. It may not be 100% true but a level 4 is enough to get someone into the 21 NT side. I did it with one of my guys by the time he was 20.

From: Leeroy

This Post:
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242993.123 in reply to 242993.121
Date: 6/13/2013 3:46:34 AM
Overall Posts Rated:
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You didn't add anything to that list (scouting is a part of setting the line up). Game shape and training plan, that's because you're a nice guy. It's out of your hands.

I said you gave a simplistic view of an U21 Coaches job. Therefore I extrapolated
Read my post again mate.

What I would want from my U21 Coach is all of the above plus:
- Consistent contact with players coaches regarding Game Shape and training plans
- Scouting players, Rival U21 Teams and tactics
- Updates of how the team is going in the BB-Forums
- Firm grasp of training tactics (elastic effects)

I'd personally much rather a candidate who would go to these lengths than one that wouldn't.

Last edited by Leeroy at 6/13/2013 3:48:36 AM

This Post:
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242993.124 in reply to 242993.122
Date: 6/13/2013 3:54:04 AM
Overall Posts Rated:
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EZ, I'm probably going to vote for you.

I really like Mickyster and Mr Green as managers, but I like your approach.
It's no nonsense and that rubs my bits the right way.

Being the U21/NT manager isn't about baking cookies and brushing each others hair while we sit around in our underwear talking about boys.

It's about putting the best available team together and playing to our strengths and against our opponents weaknesses.
And I'm not saying that the other guys aren't capable of doing that, I just think the focus is misplaced.

I've noticed alot of "how do you get everyone involved?" lines of questioning.
Getting 70+ managers to get involved when they never do, never make a forum post but continue to be active as team managers is near impossible, you can't offer someone something intangible to make them change their habits. So this is why you have polls with only 16 votes, this is why only 30ish people voted last time around. You simply can't get people to do things they either don't want to or CBF doing.

What our U21 team needs is for the best draftees to go to the committed managers and not wasting away with deadbeat nobodies who are life members of div3/4. It's really simple.. If the best trainers got the best rookies we would dominate.
You can convince new managers to train their studs to a point, but will they maintain focus, when it gets boring to them? when that player exceeds their salary affordability? Unfortunately it's an imperfect system and we need the managers that do give a sh!t to keep training studs.

This Post:
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242993.125 in reply to 242993.124
Date: 6/13/2013 4:39:36 AM
Overall Posts Rated:
12661266
So you are saying the manager of the 21 NT side should not waste their time trying to get more people training players? You don't need to be a MVP+ to be a good 21 NT player. So there is a chance for lots of people to train guys for the team.

Picking the best squad and then the best lineup each game is a quick process and even if I don't win I would be disappointed if that was all the person who won was worried about doing.

From: Mr J

This Post:
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242993.126 in reply to 242993.123
Date: 6/13/2013 6:08:55 AM
Overall Posts Rated:
441441
You didn't add anything to that list (scouting is a part of setting the line up). Game shape and training plan, that's because you're a nice guy. It's out of your hands.

I said you gave a simplistic view of an U21 Coaches job. Therefore I extrapolated
Read my post again mate.

What I would want from my U21 Coach is all of the above plus:
- Consistent contact with players coaches regarding Game Shape and training plans
- Scouting players, Rival U21 Teams and tactics
- Updates of how the team is going in the BB-Forums
- Firm grasp of training tactics (elastic effects)

I'd personally much rather a candidate who would go to these lengths than one that wouldn't.


I think you are spot on, Leeroy. However, I would join both your lists and suggest that they are the roles of the U21 NT Coach. Which is what you were suggesting I think. Those of us running would be remiss to ignore your experience and comments.


On reading previous posts and how conversationsd have morphed somewhat recently, I would like to just clear up a possible misconception: that I have a somewhat utopian idea of what our community should look and function like.

When I decided to run for this position it soon occurred to me that putting aside all of the facets of the U21 NT role (all of those listed above by ezy and Leeroy combined), I wanted a foundation that made 'my' job easier as coach. I felt that having a selection of assigned 'experts' would be beneficial to help managers of players with training, general advice etc.

I also thought that having all our U21 NT needs met in one place was beneficial as it provided a clean slate, easily accessible material that the offsite forum doesn't offer anymore.

I thought that many Aussie managers would see the value of such a foundation. I also thought that a newly created Federation would/could be that foundation. Perhaps I was niave?

Over the last few days I have slightly altered my perceptions of what the community wants and what it will utilise. Let me briefly explain my new thinking:

1. Instead of individual 'experts' assigned to 18yr olds, 19yr olds etc I think a thread within the federation designated for each age group would work better where all managers can have their say about players...what they should like like...how they could be trained etc.
2. Concerning game tactics, I would put my views of our next game on the discussion thread and invite managers to discuss my intended tactics and player choices. Having a discussion about these matters has worked for us Calamari in our Fed and would be of even greater value on a larger scale.
3. I still believe that we could get more interest from managers if we created a new federation (that encompasses both U21 and NT business) that is not just informative but interesting. This could, as I suggested previously, be done through 'tongue-in-cheek' post-match reviews, by engaging pre-match writeups or through easily setup threads like a HOF to showcase former U21 talent. Of course, these 'extras' would be 'cool' but may not happen. But it is still a vision of mine that they occur. I'm not a dreamer; I am simply looking for easy and exciting addons for managers.
4. As Coach I would take full responsibility of the 18yr olds (saving them where necessary) and making contact with managers of prospects and not leaving that to an '18yr old' Mentor (an experienced manager) which I had previously considered. I would also touch base with managers regularly in regards to GS and how their maintenance of it effects their player's chance of playing and the team in general.
5. I believe that having a newly created Federation could still benefit non-supporters through weekly updates on the Aussie forum by myself as Coach. I could post about recent performances and provide a brief analysis or general comments. Having a PR guy to enhance this would be 'cool' but may not occur.


Last edited by Mr J at 6/13/2013 6:15:15 AM

From: Mr J

To: Mr J
This Post:
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242993.127 in reply to 242993.126
Date: 6/13/2013 6:14:20 AM
Overall Posts Rated:
441441
Sorry..continued...

6. I still believe that while a larger team to support the coach would be beneficial to do more, its more realistic to have a smaller number of people initially who can provide support. Their roles might be to help with scouting of opponents and their tactics for example. As the team evolves more positions may be created by individuals wanting to do more.

I guess I want it to be clear that while my original vision has altered, I still believe most of what I had set out is achievable and necessary. I had not intended for people to think that I was attempting to do everything as the coach but rather that as Coach, what could I have in place that will make my job easier, keep and enhance interest and ensure that this season and the next---and future teams---achieve to their potential on the court.

From: Kilrtom

To: Mr J
This Post:
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242993.128 in reply to 242993.127
Date: 6/13/2013 6:37:35 AM
Overall Posts Rated:
11451145
Your long post is impressive. I almost read it all.

You've got my vote if you join my federation.....

(http://www.buzzerbeater.com/community/fedoverview.aspx?fe...)

Seriously...Join my federation (need 4 more members for 100!) and you get a extra vote.

Otherwise Peacenroll gets it re spite

Manager of the Bahamas National Team!
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