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Well said Zeus and I totally agree with all of it.

I have helped Zeus in the last few weeks scouting players and messaged every (or at least 99%) of managers who had a Season 29 draftee with allstar potential or higher, both 18 and 19 year olds and got close to 50 managers messaging me back, now this is a good amount of managers replying however some of them had no clue of training and that's where I support what Zeus says about training and helping out Division III managers as a community. Now I'm not saying everyone has to take on a role like I did and help out as they may not have the time, but its also a struggle for me sometimes to message 40 odd managers and reply to every single one suggesting a training routine and ask basic questions involved in training, I think there's too much of the Division III teams who play the game and train their players but in the wrong and that's where we more experienced players must intervene and progress the U21 and senior side as a country.

as one off the coaches that (half) waisted a MVP player, I have to say that the english NT has one off two problems. Or we have not enough MVP or better players as a community to ever be competing for anything or there are too high expectations from some how players should be trained and that they should have loads off secondaries in order to be even considered playing for the NT. in combination with having to be MVP or better.

Trying to train players and give them some secondaries and to keep them in a certain wage range and to stay atleast half competitive seems to me an impossible task. Take for example Osman. He is coming along very nicely. But ideally he would need 2 more PS and 1 or 2 more OD. It is (please spare me the 1 or 2 possible exception stories) near to impossible to give him that kind off training. With his salary, it is very difficult to give him off position training and still stay half competitive, which is necessary to get enough gate revenue. I will do it, but to expect or hope other trainers do the same thing is just not realistic.

If Sidaway with 3 more seasons training has no chance to make it into the NT because off his weak secondaries, than I would like to know what kind off secondaries are being expected for en english NT guard to have...

Last edited by Astragoth at 12/5/2014 4:03:27 PM

Several pages of comments now. I've just been skimming through it, not skimming through laziness, but because I've already read it and wanted to refresh my memory, and I think we've identified two main problems, that I think may have been obvious to us all all along.

One, there aren't enough people offering advice, and two, there's no one reading what advice is given, or reading it and ignoring it.

Zeus is right. People don't seem to understand that we're (mostly him) trying to help. That's been the aim of the forum posts I put out at draft time. (Possibly too late to have the effect I want.)

This isn't a new thing. Almost every U21 coach I've known has had the same problem.

When it comes to training, I've made clear all along that I don't feel its my place to tell people how to train. Even if I did, and then someone asked to see my current or former NT players, I'd be slightly embarrassed. Though that's not the reason I don't do it. I feel people's players are their own. The NT just borrow them.

I feel I could do more though.

I can see a number of people obviously want England to do well. Even people who aren't actually English but are in our league. We need to find a way to use the passion in the last few pages of this thread to push England forward and perhaps sort out the future.

I don't think its going to be easy. If any lower division managers have thoughts about this thread and the NT in general I'd love to hear from them. I know the forums can be a fairly bewildering place but everyone is entitled to a view and to post it here.

Finally, thanks to everyone who has posted, and hopefully will continue to post.

There used to be the thread with minimum initial skills and a guide that Morwood put together. I think adding something like "desirables" going forward for the NT would not hurt (Tuck did do something like that on the offsite).

It would be a great starting point if people realised what they have and where they need to get to, with or without any direct human interaction. Of course, I think the forums are not really used that much and that people see posts in their league forums with weeks or month's delay, but we have to live with this.

Reaching people in this game is really quite difficult, but it's kind of vital for this community: we stand a much better chance to retain new D3 managers if they are engaged with U21/NT and with training than otherwise. And this with all the caveats which some people pointed out before (can't ask new guys to spend all their money on trainees over building arena, demoting and whatnot).

I would like to see someone with more experience than me talk about the order in which skills should be trained since that has more impact on training than both the coach level and missing some seconds/minutes of training every now and then.

Finally I think it wouldn't be bad we start realising that unconventional builds can be used for superstar and perennial allstar potentials. This usually requires punting something in order achieve the best possible results with that potential level. In a shrinking user base the number of quality MVPs and HoFs available will naturally decrease at some point (and we might be not that far off). Disregarding superstar potentials given the situation is risky at best.

Last edited by Lemonshine at 12/5/2014 7:28:17 PM

Definitely agree about retaining more D3 managers if they are engaged with the NT/U21 and even just on the forums or the match chat..


Gives more incentives to login and enjoy the game and also understand the importance of English draft prospects= hopefully better English players down the line.

Finally I think it wouldn't be bad we start realising that unconventional builds can be used for superstar and perennial allstar potentials. This usually requires punting something in order achieve the best possible results with that potential level. In a shrinking user base the number of quality MVPs and HoFs available will naturally decrease at some point (and we might be not that far off). Disregarding superstar potentials given the situation is risky at best.

this is what I was trying to say before, but english is not my mother tongue so it is hard to write messages in the correct way. Glad lemon did.

coming back to the "desireable" bit for skill sets etc for future NT players, I feel that there is an unrealistic expectation, especially from some EBBL coaches, please give us (the players that still can and are in a position to train out off position and would like to help out the NT) a "desireable" skill set that is realistic. I think we all can agree that EBBL teams more or less cant train out off position and that div II or lower can, but only to a certain extent. I think bigs with 8 or higher in JR, OD, PS and guards with higher than 8 in ID, IS, SB and RB is unrealistic. I am not saying it is impossible, but I do not think we as a small nation are in the position to aim for such skill levels.

Would like to have other peoples thoughts on this please and I would also like to know what the current skillset is that we people (who would like to train for the NT) should aim at...

For discussion re secondaries;

http://www.buzzerbeater.com/player/34619214/overview.aspx

I this is a pretty good example of required starting skills apart from low passing but easily u21 SF, not enough potential for NT but if you started from here...

My player first u21 player with all star potential ended like this at 22,

Jump Shot: tremendous Jump Range: proficient
Outside Def.: prolific Handling: marvelous
Driving: prodigious Passing: mediocre
Inside Shot: prolific Inside Def.: proficient
Rebounding: respectable Shot Blocking: average
Stamina: respectable Free Throw: average

from here if he had HofF pot or MVP I could have banged a season of each inside skills for a great PF/C, I don't get to see NT stats but I assume a player like that would be useful......

I'm not training him so he is wasted so thought he would be a good guy to help spark debate!

Any of you newer trainers, what do you think of him? Veteran guys if he was a MVP/HofF would he be a good prospect? How would you approach training him? Like I suggest or different approach? Sure the community would be interested in opinions...

sorry. i cant see the guy you linked, end up like this at 22. I have the feeling, this is what you are trying to say right? Not saying you are wrong or trying to argue, I am not great in understanding any off the game mechanics and it just feels hard to believe that this is possible for a guy with the starting skills you posted.

Jump Shot: tremendous Jump Range: proficient
Outside Def.: prolific Handling: marvelous
Driving: prodigious Passing: mediocre
Inside Shot: prolific Inside Def.: proficient
Rebounding: respectable Shot Blocking: average
Stamina: respectable Free Throw: average

also, lower than superstar potential, even i feel, is too low a potential to train. I wouldnt mind training future NT players, but training for the U21, using low potential players, I think for a nation as small as england, is unachievable, I certainly wouldnt wamt to train a star or all star player for 4 seasons knowing after that I would need to sell him because he is not the kind off player long term I need for my team. I would prefer to focus on players that can stay in my team...

Hey,

The guy I posted has similar starting stats to the guy above, because his drive, handle and shot are his low stats he can have quick high TSP as his secondaries are already strong. These 3 skills train very fast as 1 training pops all 3 skills.....also I believe this type of training creates good elastic effect for other skills.

I totally agree that players who are committed for the long term wouldn't want to train all stars as they cap at above and you would want him to be the franchise long term. He is capped at the stats above so made/would make the u21 team but wouldn't be good enough for NT but with a higher potential player you could follow this training then add inside skills at 21/22.

BUT for newer managers who need to learn how to train and have a smaller budget having 3 guys like this with $20000 salary when finished and then looking for higher potential once they have built arena and practiced training is a great plan. It's what I've done.

Wouldn't 3 players like above help most D2/3 teams?

I can assure you the above player is real AND achievable if you follow a simple training plan with the RIGHT trainee.



JB

I think having 3 off these players might help you survive in div II. But that's is.

Now the community is talking about out off position training future NT players, I would like to ask our EBBL coaches, who are the pilars off this community, how many off you are training players out off position, to give them high secondaries and so that they can play for the NT??

Last edited by Astragoth at 12/6/2014 5:45:50 AM

Seems a good of example of where it would be great for players to be at at 22 but realistically most trainees dont have such good secondaries or a high enough tsp at 18 to be that good by that age..


You are right about only focussing on players that will be good enough in the long run but some players might lack secondaries at NT because of the limited number of players, can't be more than 15-20 MVP+ draftees each season? Many of which dont end up getting trained or trained properly, so surely a well trained over 8 seasons guy with average secondaries is better than nowt?