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On the other hand draft picks are free, or at worst only the cost of scouting,

DT really doesn't ruin the price market. Imagine you want to sell your best trainee and you put him on the TL for 0. Imagine that there is only one player interested and he would get your player for 1000$. DT would make sure that the price for that player go up to a reasonable value which now is reasonable value minus 20%.

The only thing a daytrader does is buying your trainee for a cheap price ($2000,- in this example) and sell it again for a few tons more. So the daytrader gets a few tons of $$ which should be yours.

well well well.

here is the facts:
Daytrading makes profit. Ofcourse, otherwise it wouldn't even be there.

People who have more time than others can profit more from it, BUT it also takes effort, not just time.
I agree that in this stage (early stage in the history of a game) in BB the profit might be too big. But that is a difrent matter. For now, let me explain why we NEED daytrading.

I think it's easiest to start with saying: let's asume that fees, and taxes, makes it impossible to profit from daytrading.
- Teams would ONLY buy a player when the NEED one.
- Not many teams realy need players, they might be lured into buying one that is better than the ones they have, but you'll see later in this list the chances for that get slim without daytrading.
- because of this very few players will get sold, because only few teams will buy players.
- teams that want to sell a player will not likely get much money, or none at all, for their player, so they'll stick to him and play him rather than buy a new one and having to fire the other.
- because everyone will have a hard time selling their players, the price will drop to 1000$ for almost any player.
-if you have a good player that's worth a lot, you will not get a lot, because 10 other teams are offering the same kind of player for 1000$, because there's only 1 buyer interested in the player.

he fact is, if daytrading is stopped, the TL will have very little 'flow' People will get tired of putting up their players for sale, and it will become a near-dead place.
-teams who need a little extra money in order to survive will have no chance of doing so, they lose matches, they can't buy better players, because they don't have money, they can't sell their own, because nobody's buying, they have few spectators to view their pitty matches... what way will they be able to make money??

I realise that teams who put time and effort in daytrading profit from it, but they also make sure prices don't drop, and every team has a chance of getting money for their players.
Because of daytraders watching the TL closely every day, players will always get a minimum amount of money payed for them, because if the price is not high enough, an other daytrader will bid more. If they are not around, nobody will be there to raise the bid on a starplayer, since maybe only 1 team NEEDS him at that time...

In the end I think my conclusion is that the system used in hattrick (and I never thought I'd say it) is not so bad. With a transfer comparison managers are able to get a nice look at the value of a player. the player will always make a minimum amount of money for his team, and daytraders will not be able to gain VERY much because the rest knows he's not worth THAT much.
This way daytraders keep the marketprices level, while all teams can sell off the players they want, the TL will stay nicely active and the managers putting extra time and effort still are able to gain a little....
I strongly feel that without daytrading, a game, this game, might be doomed. However I AM aware of the downsides. See it like eating. We all need to eat. With our environmental situation and the economic aspects of production we are served a large variety of poisons in our food, still we need to eat, or else we die. ;)
TL is the potatoes of BB, one can live without eating potatoes, but the ones planting potatoes, harvesting them and eating them, get a nice infuse of energy from the food...

So I conclude:
I understand that many see the downsides of daytrading, but I must strongly advise to think about it carefully, and also take into account the effect it would have if daytrading is stopped. I don't think anyone would stop eating because they know there's a little amount of poison in every food, because they know what would happen if they stop eating. No I ask to start knowing what would happen if we stop daytrading...

On the other hand draft picks are free, or at worst only the cost of scouting,

If I've invested 10k/wk for 14 weeks, those kids cost me around 47k apiece. And they should be original team members, as I've been paying each one over 3k/wk for a full season.

The only thing a daytrader does is buying your trainee for a cheap price ($2000,- in this example) and sell it again for a few tons more. So the daytrader gets a few tons of $$ which should be yours.

Not to defend or promote day-trading, but if that money should have been yours, why didn't you set the selling price that high to begin with? If you really wanted those "tons of $$" in the first place, you should ask for it. It won't cost you a dime to re-list that player if he doesn't sell.

I 100% agree with that point, and I will not list any players in BB for 0 if they are worth 500k, since there is no transfer comparison here like in Hattrick, so most likely only the daytraders knows the value of your player very well.

I'd rather not see a transfer compare in BB, ever. As unique as the players with the same skills can be here (don't forget that height is an issue), TC would be a waste of programming.

Sell your players for the price you think you deserve for that player. Everything else (including whether some nutjob wants to pay better than $1M for that player later on) is out of your hands.

i think there is also an prob with cheaters, coz its hard to find out whats an reasonable price or not. i mean for my opinion players with an salary below 2k sold for 100k+ is not normal or am i wrong? also i recognized some teams only selling there players to buy crap from only one team and stuff like that.
it would be nice to see at least an unofficial list of player values or something like that, i mean i already read that value thread but i dont post every strange transfer in that its kind of to much work.

Edited by CRACKintheBONG (16.12.2007 14:26:38 CET)

Last edited by CitB at 12/16/2007 2:26:38 PM

here is the facts:
Daytrading makes profit. Ofcourse, otherwise it wouldn't even be there.

I agree that in this stage (early stage in the history of a game) in BB the profit might be too big. But that is a difrent matter. For now, let me explain why we NEED daytrading.

You've explained why we need market specialists, not why we need teams making 30 transfers per week, and having rosters larger than can be displayed.

That was the point of my thought exercise. If the DT make the game better, then why wouldn't BB actually hire people to scan the transfer market for bargains and regulate the price?

The alternative is to depend on there being enough DT willing to regularly scan the market for bargains. But is that dependable?

Let's say that I am the equal to another manager in my league as far as tactics, etc. But I'm a little better than him in getting players that I actually use for my team. Both of us get a +4 injury to our star center, so we go to the market. He's in a hurry, and pays $100,000. I have a little bit of time, and am able to log in at various deadlines and so am able to pick up a clone of the player for $70,000. So I am ahead $30,000 of my competitor. Now the day trader is not so clever as I. But he deals in volume. He finds dozens of players for $80,000 and sells them to teams like my leaguemate for $100,000. I could have found the player I bought for $70,000 and bought 4 others for $80,000. But I can't use a team of centers.

The DT can bid $80,000 on 20 players, and wake up in the morning and see what he has won. There is zero cost for bidding on players. There is zero cost for putting players on the market for a fixed mark up, unless you end up paying the salary.

And consider some other possibilities of cost-less trading. You have scouted your opponent and sees that he likes to go inside and you prepare accordingly. Meanwhile he buys 3 3-point bombers plus some passers and your 2-3 zone simply provides more hands to in-bound the ball after the shot is made. He can sell either the 3-point bombers after the game, or perhaps his centers.

I can't use more than 5 players on the court. I can only train 4-6 players. I can't expand my stadium to twice what I can fill. I can't play more than one scrimmage per week. I can only hire one coach, doctor, and PR guy. But I can trade dozens of players per week. That is the problem. It is the volume.

Just one phrase; to regulate the market it's enough to put all the players at zero $ not to have wild DT. I still don't understand in which way the day traders can balance the market... Who thinks that, do you think eveyrone has to make DT to help the comunity?
Without players coming from Bot the DT would never had all this money. Good players unleashed all togheter made DT happy, I think now they don't have anymore the possibility to realise huge profit.

- Teams would ONLY buy a player when the NEED one.
- Not many teams realy need players, they might be lured into buying one that is better than the ones they have, but you'll see later in this list the chances for that get slim without daytrading.
- because of this very few players will get sold, because only few teams will buy players.
- teams that want to sell a player will not likely get much money, or none at all, for their player, so they'll stick to him and play him rather than buy a new one and having to fire the other.
- because everyone will have a hard time selling their players, the price will drop to 1000$ for almost any player.
-if you have a good player that's worth a lot, you will not get a lot, because 10 other teams are offering the same kind of player for 1000$, because there's only 1 buyer interested in the player.

I can't really follow your reasoning here.
Day traders do not increase the number of buyers nor the demand for players. They buy 1 and sell 1.
If they buy (for example) at 10 and sell at 20... this just means there was somebody willing to pay 20 for the original player, with or without day traders.

What day traders do is just to take advantage of ups and downs in the market prices, mainly within different hours of the day or days of the week, so in the very short term.
I agree, though, that they somehow stabilize the market prices, in particular for a new game like BB which has a limited number of on-line players at each moment.