BuzzerBeater Forums

Let's keep the worthiness of having a Aggressiveness stat for a different thread. Anyone who's seen my thoughts on the matter will know that I once took great pleasure in putting a thug in my lineup, so keep in mind that there are times when Aggressiveness has it's supporters (not that I have a preference for Aggressive players or recognize what a drag it is when your best player's always in foul trouble).

That being said, I actually like having hidden attributes, particularly Aggressiveness. It's a little strange in some ways to know anyone's attributes, as if players don't have ups and downs, or that scouting is so perfect. I would actually like to see a margin of error put into our knowledge of the attributes, but probably makes me a bit of an extremist. Rather than rant about the silliness of quantifying attributes, as if our players were Dungeons & Dragons characters, I'll just point out that we all have the ability to scouting of our own. Sure you can't see the actual Aggressive Attribute, but you can look at a player's stat history and see how many fouls a player has. I know that if I was about to spend my teams entire savings on one player, I'd look into something like that. It stinks having to learn that lesson the hard way, but that's the leg work that separates the good managers from the great managers.

Now if only we could tell whether or not a player was chaotic good or lawful evil, or how high their Wisdom or Dexterity is...

Yes, yes of course we can detect stats of those old players. :) Has anyone actually read the first posts before posting their "wisdom". I was more interested of those 18y players straight from the draft (as said earlier). You can't see their stats. As I'm one of these managers who like to "build" my guys (at least now), not to buy some 25-28y oldies.

But, well.. this idea doesn't get the wind below it like I would have hoped. Someone are just born to suffer with aggressive players and others are luckier.

Off topic:
Choosing class: Sorcerer
Alignment: Chaotic Evil
Rolling for Charisma... 1

You can usually tell within the first month if a player is really Aggressive or not. Poor defense will cause more fouls, sure, but if a trainee is racking up the fouls a really fast rate, it doesn't take the entire half of a season to figure it out. And so what if you can't see the attribute level? It's not like you're seeing any attribute numbers before the draft.

"Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something." - Plato

Eh... What Napauttaja is trying to say is, that if you want fresh trainee and buy 18y one from transfer list, you CAN'T say if it's aggressive or not. And when player is in transferlist, you don't have much time to see it playing (most likely it isnt playing at all). So... you buy expensive 18y trainee, hall of famer and then notice that it's foul-addict. This thing should be included in scouting. When they do "testgames" for team and you notice some ratings, you should also be able to tell does player play aggressively or not.

"Don't argue with idiots. They'll drag you down to their level and beat you...

...with experience."

Last edited by skeletappi at 2/10/2011 5:13:22 PM

So... don't pay so much for an unknown commodity!

"I believe virtually everything I read, and I think that is what makes me more of a selective human than someone who doesn't believe anything." -David St. Hubbins

I see someone having elitist attitude here, maybe it's because of so cool GM-status.

That still doesnt make it more realistic. In real life if you are scouting people, you will also consider personality of players when you watch their matches. So if potential kids come to your club showing their skills and when you interview them etc. (reading in scouting pages btw if you didnt notice!), you really should have some kind of view about their personality as well.

If not, maybe they should change content of those pages and let people know that "You will scout only skills and potential of players but we want to keep personality hidden! We want to keep some random factor in game!".

I really don't see reason why it must be so mysterious hidden factor, it's just stupid. It doesnt add depth to this game or give any fun elements. Sure it's ok to watch old players and see how much they do fouls, but same should be doable somehow to youngsters as well.

Also, you can give higher bonuses in something for those players that are more aggressive. So people don't stop training them, but it would be up to manager to decide what he wants to do.

Just my 5 cents, but I guess that's too much for elitist attitude to read anyway.



Last edited by skeletappi at 2/10/2011 11:10:48 PM

I don't think my posts are personal, so I don't know why you are taking them as such. This is a discussion regarding Suggestions, which are made for the purpose of the betterment of the game. Let's just stick to that. By all means it's great to get ideas brought to the table where we, the users of the game, can kick the ideas around and the game developers will use our discussion as part of their consideration for game improvements.

I think Aggressiveness as it is treated here is considered more of an innate character trait rather than something that gets "trained". The skills that are trained have an "aggressive" component by nature, for example rebounding and defense (and most of the skills for that matter) require a player to be aggressive. But it's really hard to teach a person to be Aggressive in the BB sense. Perhaps part of the problem here is that the Aggressiveness here is related to body contact and fouling and not to precision. Until about the middle of last December, Derrick Rose was famous for not getting to the free throw line too often. He has always been "aggressive" in attacking the lane, but he would go for the best shot rather than try to draw the foul. Has he suddenly become more "aggressive" in the BB sense of the term these last couple of months? Well if he did, then he should also be committing more fouls, too. I'd just say he maybe improved his Driving skill (though resulting in more FTs rather than a higher FG% on layups).

Can Aggressiveness be scouted in a hormonally-charged 18-year-old? If this could really be assessed, maybe the likes of Eddie Curry, would have been scouted differently (who would have thought that skinny Tyson Chandler would prove to be by far more aggressive than Curry?). At 18, it's not easy to tell the difference between teen frustration/immaturity with long-term aggression issues (I wonder what Dennis Rodman and Ron Artest were like at 18?). That's my opinion.

And finally, do you really want this game to be as predictable and robotic as possible? Do you also want 3-weeks' notice before a player is scheduled for an injury, or to know when your best shooter is going to go cold in a game? Sometimes, upsets happen. Sometimes, young players full of potential turn out to be busts.

"In the immortal words of Jean Paul Sartre, 'Au revoir, gopher'." - Carl Spackler

It has nothing to do with predictable or robotic. You know.. some people are more aggressive style of players by their nature that doesnt change during years. Ofc they can add some kind of system that makes player to change their personality but it would be more "playing style" not their personality. Taking too many fouls is more personality problem than playing style problem in my opinion. And that kind of personality you can tell from 18y old already. They have been playing matches long before appearing in your club's training room you know, so interview (talking with player) and their showing skills (high pressure there) should give some kind of view about player. Maybe not accurate number like 1-10 aggressive, but maybe something like: "Bob might be prone to fouls" and such like if you have played hattrick, scouts give their reports.

If they give out accurate number, it still would be ok in my opinion. There could be range factor in that number (like... 1-3, 5-7) so it would not be accurate, but sure after talking with player and watching their game you have some kind of view that is player 1 or 10 kind of aggressive. And.. if I need aggressive player in my team, I could have possibility to buy one just like in real life. Not just buy one random guy and cross my fingers while hoping for best.

In my opinion totally random system is weak and not fun. Why? Because system we have now don't have much options to keep that player away from fouling. In real life you can talk to player and stop paying wage for week or two when he doesnt listen.

edit:

Maybe add more weight to scouting system and it's interview and test matches. Like... scouts could tell that player likes to steal ball a lot and then you watch game, he does that and takes few fouls... you could tell that player is more aggressive yes? Add this report to this player permanently, so manager who is buying this player can check out "report" what this kid is capable of.

Last edited by skeletappi at 2/11/2011 10:25:27 AM

Maybe add more weight to scouting system and it's interview and test matches. Like... scouts could tell that player likes to steal ball a lot and then you watch game, he does that and takes few fouls... you could tell that player is more aggressive yes? Add this report to this player permanently, so manager who is buying this player can check out "report" what this kid is capable of.

Probably might be interesting if we could expand draft history more into deep than now. Today you can figure out the order, but thats somehow it. So if there would be any button that shows you evaluation from scout during these days, this thing could go even so far that you could see also scouts written report.

Something like: During interview was Málek very motivated and definitively would like to grow up in your club. Results of personality test and watching him in action seems to me that he might overreact in certain key situations.

You can have it whole A4, posibilities are endless. This can be even some kind of feedback by high-quality draftees for your last league or cup position (would like to be drafted by other club), which obviousely doesnt mean that you cant get him, but might be interesting to see that...

It means lot oh typing, but can create an illusion that you are deciding about new human employees.

Last edited by aigidios at 2/11/2011 11:54:19 AM

So... don't pay so much for an unknown commodity!

i think both of you are very clever and make good points but the example of fresh 18 year olds is undenyable

if you want to be able to train up a "great" u21 team standard player you will probably buy him in his first week and people pay a million + for those 5k + MVP + players

then in their first game they foul out in 36 minutes, next game they foul out in 22 minutes, third game they foul out in 16 minutes

i know someone this happened to

they are screwed, you can't train a guy like that, you have to play rookies in cup/scrim matches or lose games, even when the player is trained he will still be a dud, you can never rely on him and he will also spend a week or two injured each season

so the only option is to sell him, but it has been 3 weeks of no pops bad minutes, now bad game shape and a record that anyone with a brain can see, so if you get half what you paid for him you are lucky

now you wasted 1/3 of your training for 3 weeks, maybe lost a game or two, and all the other good trainees are long gone

yeah the current system is great...

Yes, you got my point exactly! :)