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Pace of Princeton?

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261646.14 in reply to 261646.13
Date: 7/31/2014 8:59:48 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
766766
Here is a good link to some of the plays used in Princeton offence

http://www.coachesclipboard.net/PrincetonOffensePlays.html

Its actually really interesting reading these.
The things i feel about Princeton are that:
- It tries to take advantage of your C's good passing vs your opposition C's lack of OD.
- Your PG shouldn't necessarily be set to play at PG in offense. OR
- you play two PG's in your front court.

So you could image a 'J. Noah' type C playing as your C. a good 'outside shooting' PF. A good driving SF. And two PG's in your front court.

I believe the idea behind your C shooting more 3's, is that he essentially 'starts' the offense and so there would be more times he would need to pop a 3. If your C had say, Respectable JR, you could imagine that the opposing C wouldn't have very good OD, so the opportunity to shoot more 3's would be higher.

So in BB, I would imagine that the game engine is not complex enough to insert things like screen's, so im not entirely sure how it handles these things. Thoughts anyone?


This Post:
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261646.15 in reply to 261646.14
Date: 8/1/2014 7:05:39 AM
Overall Posts Rated:
32293229
Here is a good link to some of the plays used in Princeton offence

http://www.coachesclipboard.net/PrincetonOffensePlays.html

Its actually really interesting reading these.
The things i feel about Princeton are that:
- It tries to take advantage of your C's good passing vs your opposition C's lack of OD.
- Your PG shouldn't necessarily be set to play at PG in offense. OR
- you play two PG's in your front court.

So you could image a 'J. Noah' type C playing as your C. a good 'outside shooting' PF. A good driving SF. And two PG's in your front court.

I believe the idea behind your C shooting more 3's, is that he essentially 'starts' the offense and so there would be more times he would need to pop a 3. If your C had say, Respectable JR, you could imagine that the opposing C wouldn't have very good OD, so the opportunity to shoot more 3's would be higher.

So in BB, I would imagine that the game engine is not complex enough to insert things like screen's, so im not entirely sure how it handles these things. Thoughts anyone?



My anecdotal recollections are that the C doesn't shoot as many threes as you'd like to think he would in that type of offense, but I think you're spot on with the passing from that position being important. I would probably have to go through and do some deep analysis on my games but I definitely recall whichever guy I had at C usually ended up using his passing a lot more (approximately a metric ton of passes to other players who missed jumpers/drives) but the PF was the one of the two more likely to shoot from outside.

Of course, my recollections are likely tainted from watching the games live and saying "why isn't the C shooting more, and why is my SG still chucking it up after starting off 2-15?"

This Post:
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261646.16 in reply to 261646.14
Date: 8/1/2014 10:56:03 AM
HAHA001
II.2
Overall Posts Rated:
454454
It stated Princeton is an outside tactic. Just wondering, does it concentrate on shooting 3s? Or it concentrates on mid-range (i.e. 2 points only).

This Post:
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261646.17 in reply to 261646.16
Date: 8/2/2014 3:10:16 AM
Overall Posts Rated:
766766
i wouldnt say it concentrates on 3's.

But it does have a higher portion of 3's compared to LI, or even Base offence.

In real life, the idea is that there are screen's and picks set to get guys open for backdoor pass/drive to bucket, OR open looks. Id imagine that the open looks are often going to be longer 2 point shots and 3's. But the idea is that they are unguarded shots.

So the aim of Princeton is increase the amount of unguarded shots.

This Post:
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261646.18 in reply to 261646.17
Date: 8/2/2014 8:11:55 AM
HAHA001
II.2
Overall Posts Rated:
454454
Thanks for your reply first. I just tried Princeton tonight ... (72772920)

Most of the 3 were attempted by SG, my big men did not try many times.

From: GM-hrudey

To: HAHA
This Post:
00
261646.19 in reply to 261646.18
Date: 8/2/2014 9:51:00 AM
Overall Posts Rated:
32293229
Thanks for your reply first. I just tried Princeton tonight ... (72772920)

Most of the 3 were attempted by SG, my big men did not try many times.


They seem less likely to shoot a three against the 3-2. It seems like my big men were much happier to shoot shots against opposing big men but not as frequently when going against a guard or SF, as happens in a zone. Usually against the 3-2 you are more likely to see your big men taking driving attempts if they have good driving skill, or possibly inside shots if they have IS.

This Post:
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261646.20 in reply to 261646.18
Date: 8/2/2014 10:37:53 AM
Overall Posts Rated:
766766
the dude GDP'd you!

so probably not the best example

what i did do though is I went through the Play-by-play for Yoke Hwa
This is what occured offensively for him


Baseline jumper from T. Yoke Hwa (H). Shot missed.
T. Yoke Hwa (H) gets off a great pass to S. Chun Hua (H). S. Chun Hua (H) tries a driving layup. Shot missed.
T. Yoke Hwa (H) gets off a great pass to C. Hwa Sinn (H). C. Hwa Sinn (H) forces up a three from the top of the arc. Shot missed.
T. Yoke Hwa (H) threw the ball away.
T. Yoke Hwa (H) attempts a jump-shot from the wing
T. Yoke Hwa (H) reaches up and tries to tip it in with M. Alberman (A) right in his face. Shot missed.
P. Brâncoveanu (H) gets off a great pass to T. Yoke Hwa (H). T. Yoke Hwa (H) goes up strong for an inside shot. Shot missed.
Bodies go flying as T. Yoke Hwa (H) plows his way to the basket. Shot missed.
T. Yoke Hwa (H) goes up strong for an inside shot
Quick drop-step move leads to a two-handed dunk by T. Yoke Hwa (H)
T. Yoke Hwa (H) pulls up at the top of the key and takes a shot, guarded closely by E. Arhan (A). Scored.
T. Yoke Hwa (H) threw the ball away.
. Yoke Hwa (H) tries a driving layup, guarded closely by E. Arhan (A). Shot missed.
T. Yoke Hwa (H) backs down his defender and shoots from close range with A. Simchi (A) right in his face. Shot missed


So there are a few things to point out from there
- C doesn't take a large number of inside based shots, its more a variety. Driving, jump shot, assisted drive. One post up.
- C turns the ball over a few times.
- C attempts two assists at the start.

In general though, for a guy who plays 30 mins, he is only mentioned in the offence 14 times? This probably suggests that he is maybe 'starting' the offense or is involved in a non-assisting mnanner - eg: screens etc.

You will also notice that N. Ho pyong , who played at PF, almost exclusively took jump shots, except for a tip-in. And also, he was NEVER mentioned assisting, or attempting to assist. This also lends itself to the suggestion from the previously posted Princeton web link, that the player at 4 position will generally be in shooting positions.

worthwhile comparing what those two players do in a Look inside offense

This Post:
33
261646.21 in reply to 261646.20
Date: 8/4/2014 7:10:05 AM
white snake
II.1
Overall Posts Rated:
72987298
Second Team:
Black Forest Boars
I had to search a lot, but finally I found it again:

BB-Forrest
As a former Princeton basketball player who was taught the Princeton offense by John Thompson III, and the person who programmed the Princeton offense into BB, I can assure you that BB's "Princeton" offense, only bears a passing resemblance to the real intricacies of the Princeton offense.

This is because in order to really simulate what the Princeton offense does, we would have to be simulating things completely differently... and I mean a completely different framework for thinking about how the game is run... and that simulation would be too computationally difficult and fragile to work well as a game.

We think the BB Princeton offense represents a space of tactical focus that isn't represented by the other offenses, and being former Princeton grads we thought it bared a resemblance to the sort of tactical focus the Princeton offense creates, and so we chose to name it the "Princeton offense".

I'm not going to get into the underlying dynamics of how we simulate the offense... but yes, Princeton offense is generally slow paced and results in generally more 3 pointers and layups.

This Post:
00
261646.22 in reply to 261646.21
Date: 8/4/2014 8:22:38 AM
Overall Posts Rated:
6060
I have had scorers on my team but not jump shooters. This offense gives you many open looks jumper wise. This offense makes my shooters look decent. They are normally suspect.

From: Scoresby

This Post:
00
261646.23 in reply to 261646.22
Date: 8/4/2014 5:49:24 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
6161
I watched the Princeton from courtside for 10 years. In real life, you'd want 5 guys with decent outside and/or jump shooting and passing. Any player could also get looks at a backdoor layup, though I'd be curious to know if BB considers that a drive or an IS. In reality it works best against a man-to-man, since it relies on screens and mismatches. 3-2 is probably the best D against it, and that seems true in this game, too.

This Post:
00
261646.24 in reply to 261646.21
Date: 8/5/2014 12:58:05 AM
Overall Posts Rated:
766766
thanks for posting that.

Yes that pretty much answers my question that i had about, how the game engine would simulate things such as off the ball screening.

If I put my programmer's hat on, the way I would program this, is take selective elements of another offense that are already programmed, and add in a multiplier to 'exemplify' these elements.

eg: It takes the elements of open JS from Patient, and the 'passing' element of Motion and adds in an 'isolation' element* and then adds in a multiplier such that these are performed slightly more efficiently in Princeton.

....or something like that.

* I asterixed this bit, beceause im geussing that BB-Forrest posted that post, BEFORE the Isolation offenses were developed? So perhaps the 'isolation' element of princeton was taken out and put into these specific isolation offenses?


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