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Yeah, once I see that the players who I want have good JS/DR/HA, I'm going to switch to pressure since thats a big problem along with low JS. How much JS/JR is needed to win with RNG/Motion/Princeton if you know.

Last edited by Quno at 7/19/2017 4:31:26 PM

Yeah, once I see that the players who I want have good JS/DR/HA, I'm going to switch to pressure since thats a big problem along with low JS. How much JS/JR is needed to win with RNG/Motion/Princeton if you know.

Enough to score more points than you give up? ;)

It really is a floating target based on your league level and your defensive ability. The team I had built up through to about season 30 or so was kind of an outside team but really more defensive and was only moderately effective outside (but still awful inside, so that was useful). But because I had also prioritized making sure I had guys who wouldn't turn the ball over, who could rebound well and could defend, and mostly avoided fouling, a less-efficient offense could make up the difference with extra possessions and the extra bonus of three point shots occasionally going in. This time around, the team's much different, where I should be turning the ball over probably 50% more times than I am for some reason, and I haven't really even worked on creating the interior defense and my perimeter defense is less effective than it should be, but with a few annoying exceptions they're killers from outside, more so when I can actually stop playing training lineups and go with my preferred shooters.

I would say, then, the best thing to do is just start trying to build the team you want, see how things are going with it, and then adjust your plans as you find necessary, and of course there are always fools like me in the forums if you want to bounce things off other people.

I don't understand elastic effect, the higher HA you have on your player is the faster OD trains? So if you have 14 HA and 3 OD, what can you expect?

Most the players I'm training is between 18-21. I saw the info Lemonshine posted and wanted to ask. Is SB training better if you don't want to 2-pos rebounding?

The answer logically should be that:
a) you need to know what your target is, and for this you can use the coach parrot 'scout' sheet, at least to know whether the result is achievable or close to achievable. Don't forget to assume the skills have some sublevels, so a strong SB trainee can be anything between 8.00-8.99
b) Make sure you won't go over the 'budget' for each skill. Overbudgeting often happens with HA and DR because they do boost all other skills, but they also get trained when you train the other skills. In my NT player I had at 6 or 7 pops in HA/DR from secondary training and he started as a 19yo, so he was always a bit slow on training. Even if you assume they were quite close to the first pop then it is at least 4 or 5 and I would have gladly done without a few of them to be honest. You don't want skills like DR or HA taking eating into your cap when you could have more useful skills instead (for example my NT player is a Superstar potential so I had to be careful and I'm still training him even after he capped because of it). If you fail to account for secondary training you may have a player with a hole somewhere or a different skillset than you planned for
c) If you know what your final target is, the best idea is to train the fastest training skill provided that you make sure you won't go over budget after you train other skills.

So for example if you plan to have SB=ID, train SB before ID (because it trains a lot faster) BUT:
• stop training SB and switch to ID if the elastic effect is enough to make ID faster instead
• keep in mind you will have to train ID at some point and that will train SB too. So you will need to stop SB training shorter of your target
• keep in mind that IS or RB also train ID so if your goal is a low IS - high ID/RB/SB or a low RB - high IS/ID/SB build you will have to factor in the third skillas well
In practice this means: train SB first as it's the fastest (and it will set up the elastic effect for ID). Check that you won't overtrain SB after you switch to ID. If ID becomes faster than SB, then alternate the 2, but always making sure you won't over train a skill compared to your goal


Last edited by Lemonshine at 7/21/2017 11:21:38 AM

Another piece of advice. You may want to get comfortable with Coach Parrot or the Training simulator to track the sublevels (i.e. the fraction of next level that your player has, so when you see a 'strong' skill level you should know with some approximation whether that is a 8.0, a 8.4 or a 8.9). This is your best bet to make sure you get as close as possible to your target without overtraining or capping a player by accident.

Oh and one final thing (for real!) to consider is Cross-training: a small portion of training is allocated to a random skill. You have no control over this, you'll have to hope that the amount of crosstraining goes into relevant skills at least at the beginning.

Last edited by Lemonshine at 7/21/2017 5:12:40 AM

I'm trying to improve my knowledge about elastics (especially for the inside skills) as well. I'm training my trainees in inside skills and initially based the schedule on this post from Nachtmahr: (78242.838)

Your advice is to train SB before ID because of elastics. I had some contact with Joemaverick from Belgium about elastics as well. Joemaverick, and I've read this from a Dutch manager as well, says that it's best for elastic effect to train IS/ID>REB>SB. Which is not in line with your advice and Nachtmahr's post.

I will quote from the mail I received from Joe (thanks again Joe!) where he explains why. For me it's not about who's right, I just want to know what the optimal training schedule would be for my trainees and other potential Dutch NT trainees.

The training of a skill is linked to the other skills trained. So if you train ID, you also train IS and SB, so higher are IS and SB, faster ID will increase.

SB training improves SB, ID and RB. So it's better to have higher ID and RB than SB. RB training improves RB and ID but not SB. So RB won't improve faster if SB is higher. Conclusion: better to train RB before SB.

And you can make the same reasoning with ID: ID doesn't improve RB but RB improves ID => better to have a high level in ID when training RB but the level of RB has no impact on ID improvement => better to train ID before RB.

There are a lot of reasons why 1on1 (SF/PF) is the best training to start, one of them is that 1on1 improves IS but not ID, so IS is not impacted by ID level. So you increase IS without being penalized by ID level, and when you will train ID, since IS will be already high, ID will be faster to improve.

So the best way to use elastic effect for SF (or PF) is :

1) 1on1 (SF/PF)
2) ID
3) RB
4) SB

Now Nachtmahr said the opposite, why? What he says is that, if your goal in RB is 14 and 12 in SB, and if you train RB before SB (what I suggest), when you will train SB your player will become 15 or 14.x, and you will have trained RB too many weeks. So he suggests to train SB before RB, to not lose these weeks.

He's right and wrong at the same time. Wrong because he doesn't use elasticity, and on 10 seasons of training you lose a lot of weeks! He's right because at the end of training, you have to act as he said.

What's your opinion about this?

I think it's wrong and I would not recommend it. Even if you train 1v1 the elastics on ID from IS will be normally quite low (unless ID<<<SB) and SB will be the fastest training skill anyway.

At the most basic level Elastics and Secondary training are obviously connected: the skills which influence others through elastics are also trained by those skills as secondary training. Therefore you have a trade-off, do you train JS and get HA/DR as secondary training (and boost HA/DR elastic) or train HA/DR and JS as secondary (and boost JS elastic)? You do the second because the overall training is faster AND because HA/DR are connected to more skills (elastic/secondary training) than any other skill.

The answer is: forgetting about training targets, it's best to train the skills which train faster or that set up the elastic effect for other skills.

Now the situation for inside skills is as follows:
Main training // Secondary training // Elastic boost from // Elastic boost to (from primary training)
IS // ID (10%) + JS (20%) // ID+JS // ID + RB
ID // SB (20%) + IS (10%) // SB+IS // IS+RB+SB (full) + OD (60%)
SB // ID (40%) + RB (20%) // ID+RB // ID+RB
RB // ID (10%) + IS (10%) // ID+IS // SB

So in practice:
a) SB baseline is faster than any other inside training by quite some margin and RB is the slowest (all of this is due to secondary training being lower)
b) only a very high positive gap in IS (IS-ID) and/or high negative gap in SB (ID-SB) will change this due to the elastics on ID, making ID faster than SB. Without no gap in SB, you'd need like +12 IS over ID for ID to train faster than SB
c) in terms of the elastic effect on other skills both ID and SB boost the other 2 you want to train
d) my advice would be to train faster towards the skills that matter to your goal. In your example it's ID/RB/SB. SB trains both RB and ID why would you train ID first? It has a little elastic boost from IS, but not enough AND it trains IS as secondary instead of RB which matters to you.

Bottom line, train SB first as a priority over ID and ID over RB. If you don't care about training any more of IS then you'd have to remove that from the secondary training equation and it would make SB even better to train first. All of this up to the point where elastics affect skills enough to change the fastest training skill. At that time, in terms of pure overall speed it does not matter anymore, they become almost identical and you may as well rotate between different skills.


Edited: changed a mistake in the table and made it more comprehensive.

Last edited by Lemonshine at 7/21/2017 11:30:39 AM