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I'm sorry if you felt insulted by anything I could have said, but I don't think I haven't done it. As you can surely understand, no one can answer all posts one by one, and sometimes it's not neccessary if the answer has been said answering to other user defending the same position.

I'll have to let that one go then. Though its not surprisingly the same excuse Perpete has when he also "hasn't" insulted me in the past. There was a specific question no one else asked but never mind.

About your estimations, it's a bit early to arrive to those conclusions.

I'm sorry but it doesn't take me very long to do maths in my head. When will be a good time? After its too late?

You are talking about one measure alone, but you forget that other measures will go in the opposite direction (more salary floor, fan boycott, merging...).

Certainly I have mentioned the 2 billion dollars a lot. And that's probably why you think I have ignored everything else. But you're wrong about that too. So let me repeat: the fan boycott won't affect many people and won't make a massive difference financially to the total sum of money in the game. I admit I'm not certain what effect the increase in salary floor will have. However, I just don't see it being as massive as the increased promotion bonuses. Merging? I'm going to dismiss that right now. We have no idea if its happening, what has been proposed so far is a very small merge which will not balance the increased money in any way whatsoever. By the time merging could seriously amount to lowering the total of money in the game the damage will have been done.

Another question is to really know if we want a game where TOP players can reach 15M or it's better that no player is sold for more than 6M. It's really an interesting debate

I'm absolutely fine with the TOP players going for a lot of money. Though if transfers of 15m are going to be encourage you really will have to move up the cap on accounts, as you should be able to buy at least two players with the maximum amount of money possible. No; what I have a problem with is good but not great 33yos going for 2-3million. Players nearly 40 going for almost a million. This is not good for the game. And is a clear indication that the BB encouraged diminution of talent throughout the game has caused increase demand for average players because the supply of players has been decreased.

One more thing. Tanking is MOSTLY caused by training system. You are only allowed to train 3 players. Once you want them to be good you have to train them all the way from 18, you have to rotate them throughout whole roster during their life. It is impossible (especially nowadays) to buy suitable players that would fit in training program of your best trainee. So it ends up like that once your trainees are gone you need to re run it all the way and rotate others throught your roster. You cant be competitive for several seasons becose of it so tanking is not option it is must wheter it is huge tanking or just semi-tanking. So YOU BBs create conditions and force managers to tank strategy in periods. And at the same time you fight against it.
Do you guys have numbers how new trainings system when you can train OD at C works? Is it used at least by two managers per week?

Training system change was HUUGE in values (% penalties) while salary adjustments at JR,SB were almost none.

You haven't thought about more teams keeping their whole rosters to avoid demotion for example. Or teams just being forced to have better rosters the whole season.

I don't think you have been paying attention. You've got several D1 users from different nations saying that managers are just reducing payroll season after season and in one of the top nations (in terms of achievements) they have 10 managers at or around the salary floor, an unprecedented number.

You are also not considering that if the salary floor pushes people to buy more players then it also contributes to inflation as people try to save more. It has been said before in this thread.

Last edited by Lemonshine at 12/14/2016 6:12:01 PM

One more thing. Tanking is MOSTLY caused by training system. You are only allowed to train 3 players. Once you want them to be good you have to train them all the way from 18, you have to rotate them throughout whole roster during their life. It is impossible (especially nowadays) to buy suitable players that would fit in training program of your best trainee. So it ends up like that once your trainees are gone you need to re run it all the way and rotate others throught your roster. You cant be competitive for several seasons becose of it so tanking is not option it is must wheter it is huge tanking or just semi-tanking. So YOU BBs create conditions and force managers to tank strategy in periods. And at the same time you fight against it.
Do you guys have numbers how new trainings system when you can train OD at C works? Is it used at least by two managers per week?

Training system change was HUUGE in values (% penalties) while salary adjustments at JR,SB were almost none.

I am continually amazed that the BB's don't see/understand this exact point. Breaking the link between positions and training would eliminate 75-90% of the tanking that goes on around here. No more need for taxes on large bankrolls. No need for fan boycots to reduce income. One simple fix that would address so many problems.

Foto. If 10-12 teams are about at the same level AND if you offer promotion bonus for the guys demoting and promoting, I will take my chances and will try not to relegate while staying at the salary floor. If I demote it's not the end of the world as I would definitely make more money than going with a 600k salary team to make sure I don't demote.

Regarding the floor I think it will have some mild inflationary effect and inflation pushes people to lower their payrolls (which should have a mild deflationary effect), so in the end it will not increase competition the way you think nor reduce the average income the way you think. Or better, you may increase competition but towards the bottom without affecting the economy in any meaningful way. The salary floor is not a measure to increase competition, but to drain cash from the economy (lower income) and in that respect it will likely fail as more managers converge towards the bottom and the average income stays the same.

And while you may say 'ok but when you shed salary you need to sell players' the other problem that the average player level is still decreasing. I think there is no end to this downwards spiral until you have more players available and people can afford better talent for less money (not to the lowest levels which we reached 12 seasons ago when I was buying injury replacements with 100k+ salary for 50k). I think it's a bit late to think about this though: even if you were to double the trainable players the new wave will only kick in in 6 seasons at the earliest. This has also been proven by the Utopia experiment where players have been trained but probably are not enough. We can check with NT scout in a couple of weeks how many Utopia players are getting regular minutes anywhere in BB and see if Utopia could be self sustaining with just Utopia players (which I don't think).

Last edited by Lemonshine at 12/15/2016 4:41:48 AM

At the moment i am not sure whats more disappointing, the S37 news or the lack of communication of the people responsible for them. EGM Foto is (aside from Manon in some niche topics) the only one available for discussion and both of them prefer to abandon certain topics once the weight of arguments tilts against the proposed changes.

I haven't abandoned any topic, I've explained my point of view in almost all of them and continue reading until I think I have something to write.
I am not sure about how to measure the weight of arguments you mention, since we have different conclusions with the same data. I've just seen some different opinions as respectable as mine, but my conclussions are not the same as the ones you have.
On the other hand, if one user's idea seems interesting, it's not a bad idea to let other users discuse it before any of us gives staff point of view.

In case you or Manon (283856.147) somehow misinterpreted the post you are quoting. i was mentioning you as a positive example and your contribution is highly appreciated.

We dont agree on the salary measure but thats acceptable, giving your opinion is fair enough (even though you did not provide an example to strengthen your point of view ;)
I was just not refering to this topic but various other left-open-discussions e.g. the one Gully Foyle quoted or the general economics one in the 25M thread.

Last edited by Robard at 12/15/2016 4:44:29 AM

I agree.

The fundamental problem BB has these days is the old and inflexible training system.
Once your manager pool declines and you restrict FA, you need to balance supply of new players by adjusting the training system which was not done. Tinkering on demand side is always limited. (ask the European Central Bank ;)
Your proposed action will not change much (please read (283856.120))

Once your economy shifts into inflation a cascade of side effects starts rolling:
1. Players will save more money to buy more players, hence average league salary drops, more money is injected into the economy every week, fuelling further inflation.
2. Because the average league income increases, the competitive advantage in terms of weekly income of new users declines as they face managers with large arenas and a cheap (close to salary floor) and competitive (as all teams are close to salary floor) team having the same monthly income as the new users have with their incompetitive crap teams.
The time new users need to level up is increased, so they leave and the shrink of users continues.
3. With shrinking average roster salary, the competitive situation in all leagues declines, particularly in the top league.
The championship bonus in home game revenue is now a much higher percentage of total salary than some seasons ago, making title defense much easier. Saving money for title runs has been discouraged. Most teams in top leagues are salary-floor-tanking, few compete. (German Bundesliga has become incredibly boring)
4. The current training system encourages tanking (was mentioned here few posts up (283856.144))

A change in training has been proposed for years now (abundant and persistent e.g. by the late wolph) and yet nothing changed.

Last edited by Robard at 12/15/2016 4:40:12 AM