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Thanks for your opinion Falke, I noted them :)

On the other hand, IS only costs, but does it really make a difference on the level you're playing if it's 10 or 8? I'd keep it as low as possible to save salary.

This is true in a vacuum. If the guy will play as C or PF, then IS will help and even 2-3 extra skill points will make a huge difference and he will not be a black hole on offense. More passing is fine, but the problem is to hit the open shots and 10 or less against D1 and good D2 inside defense will not work. Yes it will cost in terms of salary, but so does JS to a lesser extent and I'd take 12-13 IS over 11-12 JS every time.

Even with Jagermeister's build (what was it? 14JS 10JR?) it's debatable if the outside prowess was enough to compensate for 9 IS, you'd need to break down the type of shots he took in each offense and estimate how much the extra JS/JR would contribute to jump shots and 3 pointers. Haek was a black hole on offense and so is Candar and when these players start taking 10, 12, 15 shots because the defense on the rest of the team is good enough then you have a problem.

To me there are 2 cases where the build above could work with even less OD than that:
1) The guy plays C and defends C and has a little more PA. If the rest of the team allows for it he should take very few shots.
2) The guy plays PG and defends PF or C and has a lot more PA. This is actually safer, especially if PA is elite and DR/JS are relatively low. The problem with this is that you need 2 forwards to play SF/PF with good or elite OD and one of them (the one at PF) will also need IS.


Last edited by Lemonshine at 10/11/2017 6:30:57 AM

The only inside shots I frequently see big men with low IS take in an outside offense, are put backs after offensive rebounds, which sucks because they're wasting the extra possession they just fought for. But in a normal half court possesion I rarely see them take a inside shot.

The problem is not only inside shots those depend on IS and PFs in outside offenses do take quite a lot of shots most of the time.

Elmacca has the best outside oriented team in D1 in England. This is the last game he played with outside offense:(98454461) C and PF took more shots than the guards and 2 3 pointers out of 35 shots. It really depends a lot on the defense.

And yes of course IS on guards is a given. There is nothing worse than a guard with 20 DR and 2-3 IS who will just keep bricking layups or even dunks.

Last edited by Lemonshine at 10/11/2017 9:20:04 AM

If you want a player to be a scorer he needs drive. No matter if it's inside or outside scoring.
For example your big man you want to build: If you really give him some more JS/JR like I suggested, he can also have 12-13 drive. It won't hurt you.

I couldn't disagree more. I'm quite happy with the outside scoring I receive from my starting guards now that I actually can play them as intended rather than as trainees. They have 11, 9 and 11 driving respectively, and they're all at about 20PPG and 40+% 3FG against good competition. I'd be happier if the engine wasn't designed so that no matter how good you are at outside shooting and how bad you try to be at 2 point shots, you're never going to take even half of your shots behind the arc.

But on the driving thing, I've noticed way too often that when I've had guys with fairly high driving, they'd take a lot of driving shots. Which is fine, if they're also good inside shooters, but if they're not, you'd see a lot of plays where they have a clear path to the hoop, attempt a driving layup and miss. It was especially a thing I noticed in Princeton.

If you want a player to be a scorer he needs drive. No matter if it's inside or outside scoring.
For example your big man you want to build: If you really give him some more JS/JR like I suggested, he can also have 12-13 drive. It won't hurt you.

I couldn't disagree more. I'm quite happy with the outside scoring I receive from my starting guards now that I actually can play them as intended rather than as trainees. They have 11, 9 and 11 driving respectively, and they're all at about 20PPG and 40+% 3FG against good competition.

That's quite impressive. I guess there's always different approaches of course. You're all about maximizing 3-pointers, but like you said yourself, outside offense also consists of other types of shots. You're actively trying to be bad at them, which I doubt is the best way to win games.

Well, they're going to be pretty decent at jump shots too, although I'd be unhappy for them wasting their time going inside the line. ;)

My intention when setting up the team was to make it so that if they had the ball outside the arc, even if they were guarded, they'd still consider it a higher percentage play to go ahead and fire up a three than it would be to try to pass or drive. I don't think that the engine gets that granular, unfortunately, but I do think that the shot distribution is at least somewhat affected by the skills of the team, so I've tweaked the skill balance in favor of shooting the three as much as I can. And it does seem like I see a lot fewer of the missed layups that so frustrated me in the Princeton run with my old guards that I didn't actually train myself.

What's your FT count compared to the rest of the league?

I have a player, a starter actually, with 1 HA and 1 DR (but pretty solid PA). He shoots a lot, more than my Chinese big who has obviously much more DR and he does really well in offenses where the team look for a good shot (so LP over LI for example). I think if all of the players have good PA they will find a decent shot most of the times. Clearly at NT level you will probably need the DR as well because PA will fail more often in front of much better OD.

In guards if you forego HA/DR training though it will reduce the overall speed in outside skills training which is nasty. Things you can do too get a player with high HA and lower DR:
- Pick players with higher OD than JS, higher HA than DR
- Train OD before 1v1 or HA so that it's higher than JS and it will pull HA more than JS pulls DR
- Train HA instead of DR


Last edited by Lemonshine at 10/11/2017 1:00:52 PM

What's your FT count compared to the rest of the league?

I'd say I'm probably in the lower third of FTs if we were to exclude end of game fouls. Part of it is just that outside offenses generally don't draw fouls to begin with, and if there were any truth to the "aggression helps you draw fouls too" theory, my guys generally don't foul a lot either.

And yeah, the training consequences of skipping 1v1 is unfortunate. Training relatively tall guys for several seasons in JR was not fun, nor was it great fun going back after the several season SB detour and trying to add OD. But let me tell you, training JR is the best thing you can do as long as you're willing to overlook that it's slower, trains fewer people than 1V1, trains a lot fewer skills than 1V1, causes a nasty salary spike combined with JS and OD, and only requires OD to stop it.