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They were too confusing, to put it simple:

PP100 has nothing to do with what actually happened in the game.

Yer its not a straight forward concept to begin with - BUT

once you understand it, it helps you make a lot of decisions and analyse the efficiency of your team.

Lets take your example where the C had a PP100 of 51. I dont know how the rest of the team faired, but lets say, that the rest of your team had better PP100 ratings.

Now lets say hypatheticall, that you believe that your C is actually really good offensively, and you play Low post/Look inside consistently.
Now maybe, in other games, ur C's PP100 is up around 100, 120, which is pretty good. yet this one game, it was down to 51. You know what that means? The opposition C has AMAZING defence against ur C

So next time you play that team, you can make better assessments about the type of offence. Or play tactically smarter - stick your gun C at PF where perhaps his opposition PF is not as good at defending.

Stuff like this. - It's a really good tool for analysing games.

It is a good analysing tool indeed, with many different aspects to weigh in order to reach a conclusion.

My objection is that, when the game uses a known statistical category, with numerical(to the decimals) valuation, you expect it to be accurate and reflect facts.
If thats not the case, there should be a different kind of valuation(i.e good,bad,excellent etc), or keep the numerical one but clearly state the fact that it's not accurate and also state the factors that may contribute to that.
We will still have to assess these factors and also the pp100 results, which is not straight forward anyways and exciting imo.

They were too confusing, to put it simple:

PP100 has nothing to do with what actually happened in the game.

I think you're being unfair to B.B King. He did an excellent job to break it down for us all.
I wouldn't say that pp100 has nothing to do with what actually happened in the game. Instead, i do recognise it as a good indicator of what happened.
At the end of the day, randomness and final score aside, working with the pp100 or the probabilities we created(or allowed to create) in the game, is a main evaluation tool to assess what we're doing right and wrong, with regards to our roster capabilities and our tactical decisions.

I wouldn't say that pp100 has nothing to do with what actually happened in the game. Instead, i do recognise it as a good indicator of what happened.

And this would be where you are going wrong and why you are having such a confusing time with this PP100 concept.

PP100 does indeed have NOTHING to do with what actually happened. PP100 is a THEORETICAL statistic to gage how a player would perform on average given current GS, enthusiasm level, skills, and tactic choice. (And since the GDP inception, potentially the effect of guesses) It is useful for understanding how your players offensive skills compare to that of his defenders defensive skills.

To illustrate my point take these two matches from last season. We were testing GDP guessing effects with the same lineups in consecutive weeks so GS shouldnt have varied much. (65381756)(65388649)
It's all scrubs but it proves the point nevertheless. Take my SF for example. Game one he had a PP100 of 76.6 and scored 12pts. Game 2 he had a PP100 of 80.3 and scored 28pts. The PP100 is nowhere near double but yet he scored 2.3 times as much. Hence it has NOTHING to do with actual results! The most that this tells you about what ACTUALLY happened is that in game 2 he had an above average game whereas in game 1 he had a significantly below average outing.

I wouldn't say that pp100 has nothing to do with what actually happened in the game. Instead, i do recognise it as a good indicator of what happened.

And this would be where you are going wrong and why you are having such a confusing time with this PP100 concept.

PP100 does indeed have NOTHING to do with what actually happened. PP100 is a THEORETICAL statistic to gage how a player would perform on average given current GS, enthusiasm level, skills, and tactic choice. (And since the GDP inception, potentially the effect of guesses) It is useful for understanding how your players offensive skills compare to that of his defenders defensive skills.

To illustrate my point take these two matches from last season. We were testing GDP guessing effects with the same lineups in consecutive weeks so GS shouldnt have varied much. (65381756)(65388649)
It's all scrubs but it proves the point nevertheless. Take my SF for example. Game one he had a PP100 of 76.6 and scored 12pts. Game 2 he had a PP100 of 80.3 and scored 28pts. The PP100 is nowhere near double but yet he scored 2.3 times as much. Hence it has NOTHING to do with actual results! The most that this tells you about what ACTUALLY happened is that in game 2 he had an above average game whereas in game 1 he had a significantly below average outing.

We're straying away from the thread's purpose and question, nevertheless...

i don't understand what gave you the impression that im confused by pp100, in any way other than the logistics of it.

pp100 isn't a statistic calculating a player's performance on average given current GS, enthusiasm, skillset and team's tactic.
It does so on the match day's specified factor values.

It's useful for understanding how your players offensive skills compare to that of his defenders defensive skills, taking into considaration the respective teams day tactics, as well. So im my mind, that is a good indicator of what happened in the game, match up wise.
If additionaly is compared to previous matches pp100 performances, then i value it to be a very useful tool in understanding what's right and wrong in my team's offense and what needs tweaking or changing.

I appreciate your testing efforts, but playing scrubs with possibly "erratic" skillsets and fielding teams of four each and a lucky fan, isn't good for credible results.
But even in your examples, we can see two great similarities. He attempted the exact same number of field goals and had pretty similar pp100s, in both games.

In proper lineups and proper games, patterns like that is what we're looking for.

Μy PG has 40% chance to score an open three.

So he takes 10 open 3p shots IN THE GAME (his only shots). His PP100 should be: 10 shots X 0.4 probability X 3pts X (100/10) = 120 P.P. 100 shots. Right? Right.

If he won't take any 3p shot IN THE GAME (and any other shot), his PP100 should be: 0 shots X 0.4 probability X etc... = 0 P.P. 100 shots.

He could score 4 out of 10 or 0 out of ten or even 10 out of ten (all of this, I call them "luck"). It doesn't matter, his PP100 would be the same.

This is how I realise P.P. 100 and any other way to do it would be useless, because any shot has another probability. For 3pts it could be 20%, for open dunks it could be 95% (random numbers just for the example) and so on...

One thing is certain: G.E. calculates PP 100 based on facts (= shots) in the game, not theoritical assumptions whether the player has the ability to take the shot and score. If there is a shot, there is a PP100 calculation, if there isn't then no PP 100 calculation.

The only question for me is the one I made in the OP: Are FTs or shots that result in a shooting foul taken into account to calculate PP 100?

Μy PG has 40% chance to score an open three.

So he takes 10 open 3p shots IN THE GAME (his only shots). His PP100 should be: 10 shots X 0.4 probability X 3pts X (100/10) = 120 P.P. 100 shots. Right? Right.

If he won't take any 3p shot IN THE GAME (and any other shot), his PP100 should be: 0 shots X 0.4 probability X etc... = 0 P.P. 100 shots.

So if he plays 47 minutes and 59 seconds with no shots, you think he should be 0 PP100, but if he throws up a full-court shot at the buzzer that misses, he's back up to 120PP100? Or should he still be 0 because he missed, and if so, if his only shot is a jumper that he scores, is it 200 PP100?

One thing is certain: G.E. calculates PP 100 based on facts (= shots) in the game, not theoritical assumptions whether the player has the ability to take the shot and score. If there is a shot, there is a PP100 calculation, if there isn't then no PP 100 calculation.

One thing is certain: the evidence and game manual state otherwise.

First of all, all the numbers I use is for the examples, to make it easier for everyone to follow what I'm thinking. I have no indication on the percentages of probabilities for every type of shot and it's circumstances.

but if he throws up a full-court shot at the buzzer that misses, he's back up to 120PP100?

No, because a full-court shot has another percentage of probability. If it has, let's say 1% to get in, the PP100 would be 3. If it has 0,5% the PP100 would be 1,5 and so on...

and if so, if his only shot is a jumper that he scores, is it 200 PP100?

If there is a type of shot, in any circumstances, which has 100% probability to be successful and it's the only shot that a player tries in a game, then yes, the PP100 should be 200. I'm sure that jumpers are not the case.

One thing is certain: the evidence and game manual state otherwise.

The manual says nothing helpful on our debate. Evidence don't exist, we just speculate, because if there were any, we wouldn't have this conversation right now, there wouldn't be any reason to do so.

The manual says nothing helpful on our debate. Evidence don't exist, we just speculate, because if there were any, we wouldn't have this conversation right now, there wouldn't be any reason to do so.

The manual does:

For games played during season 3 and later, we have replaced this with the more comprehensive matchup ratings. The matchup rating represents the number of points that players at a given position would have scored, on average, if they were to take 100 shots. A higher number is indicative of better scoring opportunities at that position over the course of the game, and of course you should try to take full advantage of your strength when selecting your tactics.

Please note it doesn't say based on the quality of shots or number of shots actually taken during the game - it just says based on the number of points they would have scored, on average, if they were to take 100 shots. Your basic assertion is that if a position took 0 shots in a game, it should be displayed as if they would score 0 points on 100 shots. The only way it should ever show 0.0 for a game that's not a walkover is if a player has less than a 0.05% chance of making a shot.

Last edited by GM-hrudey at 1/23/2014 11:53:56 AM

A higher number is indicative of better scoring opportunities at that position over the course of the game...

I'm sorry, but this doesn't prove anything... It is just an indication, a help if you prefer to a user on how to read the PP 100. It doesn't describe anything more than this...

I think that the best solution to end this debate is to straightforwardly ask BB-Marin on this. I'm going to send him a BB mail later tonight and let's hope this is something he can reveal or we'll just keep on speculating.