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BB Canada > JO and Moon to Miami

JO and Moon to Miami

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73015.17 in reply to 73015.11
Date: 2/15/2009 9:08:04 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
1515
Really. You are LOLing are you?

Lets take a poll and see how many people believe that O'Neal is as good as MArion is right now.

Is there anyone else here that would take O'Neal over Marion? If so lets here why.


What YOU need to understand is that O'Neal is a shell of his former self and is a slow it down player struggling on an up-tempo team. Marion needs to run to be effective and Miami almost never pushes the ball, despite having Wade. Not only that but Marion has been sharing duty with Beasley since they do many of the same things. It is hard to be effective playing your game when someone else plays the same game on your team.

Lets compare this year to the year most people think was his best 05-06. He is not that different a player player today despite the differences in stats..

His scoring is down about 9 points but there is more to it than that. This year he is attempting more than 6 shots less per game than that year. This is a direct result of not having Nash and sharing responsibilities with Beasley.

His shooting percentage is down from 05-06 but it is higher than every year he's ever had except 2. Not only that but his drop in percentage is almost precisely on par with the average drop in players shooting percentage after leaving Phoenix since Nash has been there. In other words he shoots the same as always but is not getting the same looks.

His rebounding is down but this can be directly attributed to that fact that he now plays mostly at the 3 spot, whereas in 05-06 he played the 4. Rebounds are much harder to come by at the 3.

Finally, he is playing about 4 minutes less per game. That accounts for a 10% drop statistically on its own.

The point of all this is that there is good reason to believe that in an up-tempo situation Shawn Marion can return to past form. He has possibly lost half a step but he still plays the same game he always did, he can still guard the 1-4 positions, and there is significant evidence that he can still be nearly as effective he was.

O'Neal has changed his game completely and that is the problem. He went from a beast under the basket to a 7 foot jumpshooter. He very well may be more effective for Miami than Toronto based on style of play, but he can not be anything like he was because his game no longer resembles what he once was.

So you can tell me to trust you all you want, and lol all you want, it doesn't change the fact that Marion is still an effective player and still has the ability to shine in the right system, while O'Neal looks nothing like himself.

Even the draft pick included in the trade is evidence that O'Neal not that player Marion is. Banks is a salary throw in, so essentially the trade is O'Neal, Moon, and a pick, for Marion. For this to be the case it would mean that both GMs agree that Marion is the better player. Do you really think you "understand" the game better than Colangelo and Pat Riley?

Oh one more thing - What would be the point of keeping Moon if Marion is on the team? Moon is essentially a very weak version of Marion, and would never see the floor again.

This Post:
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73015.19 in reply to 73015.18
Date: 2/15/2009 11:30:21 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
1111
Sorry dude, I can't be bothered to read that. To long lol.

This Post:
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73015.20 in reply to 73015.19
Date: 2/16/2009 2:02:58 AM
Overall Posts Rated:
1515
Yeah, much better to make snap judgments based on a 5 second glance of half a season worth of statistics.

Oh, and this:

I'm pretty unclear on why Banks and Moon were involved in the deal. And why give away Moon when we could've given away the likes of Solomon.


Banks' contract was needed to makes the salaries line up according to the CBA rules, and Banks was the player included because Toronto had to agree to take his contract in particular from Miami in partial exchange for getting the best player.

Moon was not a throw in like Solomon would have been because Miami needed a player to fill minutes at the 3 spot, so they likely insisted, and because there is no room for him on the Toronto roster with Marion around.

Last edited by TigerUnderGlass at 2/16/2009 2:18:53 AM

This Post:
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73015.21 in reply to 73015.18
Date: 2/16/2009 2:04:09 AM
Overall Posts Rated:
1515
Maybe so, but it is true. Moon is what you would get if Marion sucked.

This Post:
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73015.22 in reply to 73015.20
Date: 2/16/2009 8:56:44 AM
Overall Posts Rated:
1111
First of all how is that a snap judgement based on a 5 second glance. No offense, but I think I know the reasons for my opinions better than you do. These statistics show their current form, it's the best factor we have to determine that.

I didn't know that about Banks, thanks for pointing that out.

This Post:
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73015.24 in reply to 73015.23
Date: 2/16/2009 10:48:12 AM
Overall Posts Rated:
1111
Unfortunately. :p

This Post:
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73015.25 in reply to 73015.22
Date: 2/16/2009 1:42:47 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
1515
If you have other reasons then give them. A cryptic statement about having your own reasons is not very convincing. "No offense" but if you cannot even state what your reasons are then how good can they be?

Second, it is not the best factor. Stats have to be put into context to make sense. Since you are a fellow Canadian I'll use a hockey example. Vincent Lecavalier and Brad Richards.

Lecavalier has typically scored between 60 and 80 points. Suddenly 2 years ago he put up 108 and last year put up 92, but this year he's back to normal, on pace for about 70-75. Why was he better those 2 years? Did he play better? No.

If you look up shift times and quality of opposition stats you can see that during those 2 years the Brad Richards line was the one put out against the oppositions best players because Richards is more responsible defensively. Since Richards left Lecavalier gets the top opponents again.

Further proof is that the year before that, when Lecavalier's line was still seeing the opponents best players was Richards best scoring year when he put up 91 points. Richards is still seeing the top opposition for Dallas, and playing in a much harder division in a conference where points are harder to come by, thus his scoring is down too. He is also still the same player he was, but is scoring less regardless.

In other words, basic stats do not give an accurate picture without context, no matter how much you think they show "current" form. Lecavalier scored more when up against softer opposition than he did against the best opposition. This was no indication of his "form", only who he is facing on the ice. Similarly, the factors behind the decline of Marion's numbers are VERY different than the factors behind the decline of O'Neal.

Context is much more important than raw short term numbers.

This Post:
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73015.26 in reply to 73015.25
Date: 2/16/2009 4:39:17 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
1111
Dude, I'm not in the mood right now. Your posts are to long, and I really don't feel like reading them now. I'm politely asking you to leave me alone. Maybe I'll read your posts later, just not right now.

This Post:
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73015.27 in reply to 73015.26
Date: 2/16/2009 7:57:33 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
1515
Leave you alone? Does disagreeing with you equate to harassment or something? Why don't you wake up and learn that during a rational discussion people usually give reasons for their opinions, the usually don't cry and make sad attempts to belittle people who disagree.

My posts are long because I bothered to give evidence for my position rather than use you method, which was apparently to tell me to trust you, tell me that I "need to understand", and to repeatedly act superior with your little LOL comments.

II wasn't in the mood for you to to tell me I'm wrong in a mocking tone while giving zero evidence for your position and then have you whine when I respond with more substance than you deserve. Heaven forbid you take 30 seconds to read a post that might teach you something. Dude.

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