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And Jason Collins has no more control over his sexual preference than his skin color, and it's as simple as that.

You used a comparison to Jackie Robinson on that post there. ....
Careful chum
Jackie Robinson was the first African American to play in the Majors..... oh and he was one of the best ball players to ever play the game.
An African American has no "choice" in his skin color, or being male.
Jason Collins is a scrub with height.... just like a left handed pitcher you can play a long time. I consider myself at times more than a casual fan and I have never heard of this guy. .. until now. .. so I don't know his body of work on the court outside of hieght. ... so how will he be recognized to someone like me?
It's not courage. ... it is self serving. He is not the first gay person to play the game is he? And to equate that next to Jackie Robinson. ....umph.... he couldn't hide from being a black man.
Color is not a choice. .. you sexual preference is. People wish to put a human face to one thing comparing it to well. .. something you can't compare it to.

So your saying 2 gay men rob 2 different banks, however, the 1st men doesn't let on that he is gay, yet the other publicly comes out that he was gay. Would man number 2, be treated differently, then the other gay man? I think they would be.


Again, I'm not trying to put anyone down, but anytime you let on that your different from the normal you will get treated differently. That is all I'm saying.

PPS, I don't think robbing a bank should be a crime, considering how bad they fleece us.

Color is not a choice. .. you sexual preference is. People wish to put a human face to one thing comparing it to well. .. something you can't compare it to.

Completely and utterly false. There's no choice in whether you are attracted to people of the same sex or not. Many gay people will tell you that they knew from very young ages that they were different from their peers in this regard. I can already see in my 7 year old son that he's interested in girls, and female bodies. I don't see any reason why that's his conscious choice at this stage. So, I don't see any reason why the same wouldn't be true of a young gay person.

I'll take 1 step farther, Tangosz. They have actually found the gay gene.

I'll take 1 step farther, Tangosz. They have actually found the gay gene.

They are called Wranglers.

So your saying 2 gay men rob 2 different banks, however, the 1st men doesn't let on that he is gay, yet the other publicly comes out that he was gay. Would man number 2, be treated differently, then the other gay man? I think they would be.

How exactly would they be treated differently? I dont think thats all all what I'm saying.

Again, I'm not trying to put anyone down, but anytime you let on that your different from the normal you will get treated differently. That is all I'm saying.

That's the entire issue. Being different should not immediately open you up to ridicule and infringement upon your rights. Particularly being different in a way as uncontrollable as your sexual desires.

Last edited by yeppers at 4/30/2013 2:24:35 PM

So your saying 2 gay men rob 2 different banks, however, the 1st men doesn't let on that he is gay, yet the other publicly comes out that he was gay. Would man number 2, be treated differently, then the other gay man? I think they would be.


Again, I'm not trying to put anyone down, but anytime you let on that your different from the normal you will get treated differently. That is all I'm saying.

PPS, I don't think robbing a bank should be a crime, considering how bad they fleece us.

Lol no one knows what you are saying, but at least I agree to the PPS part

Color is not a choice. .. you sexual preference is.

So when did you choose to be straight? Have you ever asked a gay or lesbian person if they chose to be homosexual? I guarantee they will tell it wasn't a choice. I'm also sure some would tell you if they had the choice when they were young, they wouldn't have chosen to be homosexual to avoid the discrimination and condemnation they had to endure, many from their own parents.

Then we completely disagree on this matter and it is to be expected. You have tried to put a human face on this.
What does his declaration haveto do with Basketball?
Please answer me that question of you can?
Or wait. ... maybe I'm downplaying what Jackie Robinson did, that's it!
Some people become sexually aware at a very tender young age, and when that happens you get this statements that you brought out. ...."they knew the were different" as you stated.....yeah they did... things and impulses going on in their little bodies that it takes a grown person to understand. So some go with that impulse, and trust me others did not. ... that is called a choice.
Oh btw you have evaded the Jackie Robinson discussion you started. What was that again?
We are talking about basketball and its relevance to it. ... his statements will be forgotten, you blur the lines with your reasoning. .... don't.

We've ended up with two parallel discussions here, so I'll chime in on both.

1. I wasn't comparing Collins with Jackie Robinson. I pointed out that JR's white teammates didn't want to shower with him, and today I think you'll have to look pretty far to find someone who won't shower next to a person because of their skin color, even in the deep South.

Collins is not doing what JR did, not at all. He's just the one in his league's history who was brave enough to say it's time to stop asking whether or not someone like him is there. Clearly there have been gay players in all sports for all of history. He just put a name and face to one in our era. It's important, but not ground-breaking. They've been there all along. Important difference.

2. I always knew I was interested in women. Society also happened to encourage that way of thinking. No reason to give it a second thought. That's how it works when you are part of the dominant group.

My son first expressed his feelings for other boys at about age 8. He probably had them before then. We suspected at 3. He's 10 now, and still not comfortable enough with it to say it out loud in any group, because it's still not the norm. If I can do anything to make the world he grows up in easier for him, I will.

He didn't choose anything. I choose how I help him navigate a world growing more aware of his reality. People everywhere choose how they respond when they find out. Maybe someday soon we won't even have this discussion, because no one will think of treating him differently.

And one thing is for sure: He doesn't want to be different. He doesn't want any of his friends to stop playing with him. He doesn't want to be teased. He doesn't want to be ostracized. That's the kind of pain people don't self-inflict.

Cruelty is a choice. Making a child feel bad because of who he is, that's a choice. I hope you come to see that, for everyone's sake.

So some go with that impulse, and trust me others did not. ... that is called a choice.

If a man is attracted to men, but chooses to marry a woman, have kids etc, that doesn't mean he is straight now all of the sudden. He's still attracted to men and not women, he is still homosexual.

You said a person's sexual preference is a choice, now you are saying that whether or not a person acts on their sexual preference, or "impulse" is a choice. Those are two entirely different things.

Last edited by jfarb at 4/30/2013 2:52:34 PM

So you expect gay people to deny their feelings and impulses, whereas "straight" people are allowed to? What rational basis do you have to judge that one is acceptable, and one isn't? Why should acting on those impulses be ok if the other person is the opposite sex, but not when the other person is the same sex?

I think it's absurd to expect there to be the ability to separate those two, the impulses, and acting on them (with a consenting partner of course). And that goes doubly for expecting that of one group (gay people), when you don't expect it of another (straight people).

As far as Collins goes, the simple fact that we're having this discussion here shows that what he did is still necessary, and courageous. And it's relevant to sports because there are two aspects of sports that makes them compelling: 1) the sheer technical aspect: of performing, of coaching, of strategizing. And then there's the human element to watch, how it reflects society, and also leads society. Part of that is watching people overachieve, going beyond their limits. In that general realm, sports provides a backdrop for wider discussions going on in the society.

I have no idea what you're talking about in terms of Jackie Robinson. I didn't bring him up. Personally, he's one of the great American heroes. But talking about these things now doesn't in any way change or diminish what Robinson went through.