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I've never even realized, the difference in merchandising could be so big.
That can indeed make a sizeable difference to your finances.
I guess I will start to look out more for Belgian players too in the future

That's numbers only for NT players. Because a domestic player, even if he doesn't play in NT, increases more the merchandising than a foreigner player, with the same salary. And it's even higher if the player was drafted by his owner.

But the player really has to play in competition or cup games to make a difference in merchandising, right ?
I mean, it's not sufficient if you only own him without letting him play or only letting him play in friendly games, correct ?

I've never even realized, the difference in merchandising could be so big.
That can indeed make a sizeable difference to your finances.
I guess I will start to look out more for Belgian players too in the future :P

it's a trade off that u have to consider. multiple managers are looking for Belgian talent (Ventola, Esterellas Absurdas, Cowboys, Spartans, Amenra, Tienen, Angels, Obira, Boes and Stonestars -- tho not sure what his intentions are now). considering that we have got 5 to 6 generations that were horribly mistrained/not trained or whatever other excuse u want to use, it remains a fact that Belgian players are very rare (atleast, decent ones that aren't 33+ in ages). Hence, whenever a player does come on the TL, u have to fight multiple teams who want the same thing: a Belgian player.

So yes, it might be worth it in the long run for merchandise, but there are a few if's:
1) u will have to pay more than just the normal price, since the teams mentioned above will be likely to bid for the player aswell. Hence, overpaying a player begs the question if he's worth it in merchandise in the long haul
2) merchandise will only be worth it if that player is a starter or gets significant minutes. Merchandise will also be boosted if he is amongst the top rebounders/assist/point leaders of the league
3) merchandise will only really be boosted if he's in the NT/U21. those salaries often require secundairies that aren't salary friendly ( rebound on guards, PA on bigs), not to mention the high amount of primairies needed. this means that u need more salary on 1 position, making u weaker at another.
4) that merchandise increase will only be given if your NT player plays significant minutes in the NT. ==> if he's just comming off the bench, it ain't worth so much (when using empty lines up, they all get 20-30 minutes, making it more interesting for all the 12 players selected ofc)
5) the merchandise on Nt players goes up if u win games (especially against higher ranked teams), but goes down if u lose em (especially if it's a loss against a lower ranked team). Futhermore, in the scrimmages, the merchandise also goes down.

Hence, there are very few teams for whom this actually is worth it and for who it makes a significant impact. We all know that for Joe, it gives him something like 100k advantage in merchandise (maybe more, since he's also got foreign NT players). But Joe has has near 3 to 5 NT players for several seasons now ( Thys, Gilmont, Mees, Vercaigne, Canipel, Backaert, Breeusaert).

The only other teams who managed to get 3 of them were Stonestars (Abu Hassan, Gallagher, De Neef & Waelput) & Ventola (Waelput, De Piano & Lahure). No other team has managed to get even close to that amount.

futhermore, Joe always has had the better players, thus they nearly always started, giving him more revenue than anyone else. That has given Joe an edge for several seasons.

Dartreb does have a futur 3 ( Marichal, J-A Claeys & Vaes) but other than Marichal, he doesn't have other starters (yet).


And the fact that Joe had to buy an Albanian Guard only proves my point that we got a gap for a couple of generations in Belgian players. Had there been any players that were near the lvl of that Albanian player ( or slightely below it) Joe would have attempted to recrute them. (or maybe there are such players, but he knows all too well that they aren't for sale, that is a possibility too)

So to sum things up: Joe has had a 100k advantage (on average) per week in merchandising for the past 12 seasons or so.
considering a season is 14 weeks long, let's assume that he only had that advantage for 10 weeks per season, due to GS forcing one of his players out of the line up. that still gives him 12*10*100k = 12M advantage on 75% of the BBBL managers. maybe now u understand why he's been near unbeatable the past couple of seasons.

to be clear, that is 12M without the bonus of winning cups/titles/B3 income!

So to answer your question:

Are Belgian players important? sure, but only if they make the NT and/or lead the league in one of the 3 mentioned categories.

Hence, u have to invest in many Belgians, and truth be told, Joe's economy is so superior to the others, that it's unlikely to get a starting NT player unless if u train them yourselves. Because Joe is likely to outbid any other Belgian team for the real talents.

(considering that Joe has 5 NT players, of which 3 atleast 3 will challenge for a NT starting position -- Mees, Canipel & Backaert-- i reckon he's got around 100 to 150k above the league's averages merchandise per week. superbe weeks might even give him 200k above average, since he's got 7 NT players on that roster of his).

So is it worth it? if u can somehow get multiple cheap belgian prospects and somehow get them to a lvl that would challenge for the starting spot in the NT, then it would be worth it. but let's face it. Finding those talents and getting them cheap enough, means u need to train 3 players. that means 1 spot is slightely weaker than the other spots, so u need 4 other spots to carry the load to make up for the wekaer spot. Joe has Belgian NT players who can carry that load. other teams don't have that. Hence, Joe will be at an advantage for a while longer. there are very few players who can be trained in teh BBBL for the NT. Vaes was a steal by Dartreb (one i was monitoring but wasn't able to connect since i had no internet at the time that the deal went down -.-). Claeys & Vasseur were steals if they managed to fit into your training program.

but that is about it. Hence, it's very hard to get players who are good enough for the BBBL, who fit your training regime and ofcourse, u need the funds to acquire them.

Hence, any Belgian prospect that gets to the TL will be heavely contested and likely to be overpaid. I have searched for an entire season to replace my older Belgian players on my own roster (those who are supposed to carry the burden of the weaker trainee spots) and i haven't found a player at a decent price to buy. I too have been forced to invest in foreign players this season.

it will probably take another 2 to 3 seasons before there is enough Belgian talent on the TL where we don't have to overpay the player so much that it would take between 1 to 3 seasons to gain the merchandise back to justify the price of that Belgian prospect.

It also stresses the importance of a good U21 and NT staff. for the past couple of seasons, it has been understaffed. I've had a NT burn out. completely. So have several of the scouts. that is why u need many guy's to pitch in for a U21/NT and u either need fresh managers to rotate the scouting for a couple of seasons, or u need a very large staff to pitch in. But being a scout is a demanding, if not very ungratefull and unrewarding job. u need to invest a lot of time into players, of which often only 20% will make the U21 and of which only 5 to 10% have a shot at being a NT player if trained properly. u have to help managers out, often without explaining why they should do such a thing and which effects it will have on several seasons futher. and the worst part is when u have to tell them that their economy won't be able to hold that player any longer, meaning that they either sell the player or stop the training (which always is a Losing situation from the point of the manager who invested so much time into such a player).

Also, having to inform the manager that his player didn't make the U21/NT despite being trained at 100%, is no fun either. And the one who always shoulders that blame, is the scout, since he was responsible for helping the manager.

Hence, being a scout is a very ungratefull job. u've got the U21/NT coach who's on u if u don't follow the players good enough (that is the job of a U21/NT coach after all. he needs the best players and needs his scout to do their work), and when u do, u'll have a manager who will be dissapointed if his player(s) don't make the U21/NT team. It's also for that reason that i have great respect for the scouts. i might not always tell them, but they are the heart and soul of the Belgian community. They help managers train up these players to buy them for the BBBL teams. they enable teams like the cowboys to have such an advantage and to preform so well, both in the BBBL and in the B3 tournament. They enable the other BBBL teams to have a distant shot (or should i say illusion) of defeating the Cowboys. And they do all that work without getting proper recognition for it. Not by the BBBL managers (or very few of them understand what they do and how much time it takes) and certainly not by the rest of the community.

I remember that i've been hard for some scouts. some might say to hard (thank god Joe or Angi were there to remind me about it when needed). But i'm sure as hell proud of the work they've done and it's only after i stopped being a NT coach that i was able to step back and look at the bigger picture. It's only then that u appreciate there work. And i still haven't thanked all of them and i doubt i'll be able to thank them enough for the work they've done. Being a scout is 95% about sacrificing your time for the pleasure of others (the 5% can range from pride of having delivered a U21 player to a manager u were following or having a good relationship with some of the guy's u've followed for such a long time). If any scout disagree with me, step forward and prove me that i'm wrong. But scouts are the centre of the community and extremely important to their community. So if any of u truely want Belgian players in ur team, able to challenge Joe, then u should help out Dartreb, Joe and the rest of there staff with the U21/NT duties.

Cause if u do a decent job, there is a high probability that someday u'll benefit from it for your own team. Ofcourse, u first have to invest time before u can reap it's fruits, but that is a universal truth for all activities...

-----------------

there i'm done with my 'speech'. but if i ever going to write it down, then maybe now people will see how important it is. Joe is the longest (or second longest) serving manager on the U21/NT staff. And u can all see he's gained from it. each scout has gained something from it. knowledge, a new way of thinking, better players down the road, good relationships with other managers, ... u always can gain something. It sure isn't equivalent to the time u invest in it, but it sure as hell is better than nothing. Now if any want to help out the U21/NT, u know which 2 managers to mail so that u can get started

Thx for the Speech AZ :)

First, i want to say that i agree with your statement that scouts are very important and that indeed the job is an ungratefull one. But it can definitely help you in the long run, like you pointed out, so the more people that want to help the better.

For the first part of your speech, it provides several usefull insights on the benefit of Belgian players.

However, i find that you are very focused on Joe and his team. I want to point out that not every team has the ambition to defeat Joe. Else you can only have 1 winner and all the other teams are losers.
Goals can be different: mine is to reach the finals: if i make it, my season will be a success. I'm not focused on Joe.
Other goals can be to get a promotion, not to relegate, train young players, etc... .

A future goal of mine will be to train a fully Belgian team, not with the focus on increasing my income or whatever, but just for sentimental reasons and to try to be succesfull with such a team. Successfull in the sense of realistic goals, like mentioned above.

It's just a side-note i want to raise, because i got a slightly depressing feeling after reading your posts: ow noooooo, i will never be able to defeat Joe... ;)

In any case: happy newyear for everyone!!

i used Joe as an example. didn't mean to focus it around him tho. (just trying to point out everything).

And someone will beat Joe. he can't stay top at the top forever. Mizu did it twice. and i'd nearly dare wage my money that Dartreb would be the next one to do so.

Joe has got 2x 34 olds on his roster. i experienced first hand what that means last season when i saw Otto quadra de-up last season in one week ( 2 lvls of Js, a lvl in JR & DR, all in one week lost!)

And as u stated, i've also got some emotional value to some players (otherwise i wouldn't be keeping Vanhawaert, vandeWalle and Otto around).

So he won't be totally unbeatable this season, and next season he's likely to take a back seat again and focus on the cup & training, since he'll be training a couple of players up.

with Joe, it seems to work in cycles :P Gilmont, Thys, Vercaigne & Mees owning the league. Exit Gilmont and Thys, mini rebuild for Cowboys ==> Mizu emerges. Joe comes back with Mees, Vercaigne, Canipel, Marshall and Breeusaert. should be interesting to see in a couple of seasons who his top 3 belgians will be, but i'm ready to bet my money that the spartans will soon be taking over the league for a couple of seasons. (and yes, i'm not forgetting Mizu but Mizu would need some roster changes since his 7 man rotation doesn't allow him to focus on the cup & the league)

just some of my predictions. let's see how they'll turn out ;)

First of all good and happy new year to all of you !

That's quite a nice speech Revo, thanks !

I agree with many points : scouts are essential to Belgium. The scouts' work will make more valuable belgiuan players available for everyone, not just for Joe ;) And when tis occur, price will also be more affordable.

On the other hand, Joe's grip over belgian competitions is tight because he invested many ressources into this : time to scout valuable players on the transfer-list (this may not quite take a lot of time on a day-to-day basis, but I can assure you that it IS time-consuming. Seizeing a good opportunity is not only a matter of getting what's nice on the market at any given time, but to track down a valuable player, wait for a correct price, outbeat opponents and so on), train them (Joe is an extremely dedicated trainer, and of the marvelous player he has, he pretty much trained him himself), or buy them, often vastly overpriced, for the reasons that make that a belgian player is overpriced.

So investing time, training and money is rewarding, and I'm quite just happy that it is that way :p Not that Joe's opponents are not doing it, but looks like we're not doing it well enough.

About merchandise, having valuable belgian players is rewarding, even if they don't make it to the NT. The latter being of course the best way to get much merchandise fast. I struggled with my own before I could lay my hands on Claeys and Marichal, now they're much above average, and allow myself to maintain a rather expensive roster (and thus a competitive one).

Now although I'm flattered to read that I might be challenging Joe's hegemony in the Championship does indeed please me much but right now there are several factors indicating I'm not ready yet.

- 1) Joe is the reigning champions, and many teams give up against him (not including Nico's Stonestars), allowing him to maintain a very high TS all season long. This kind of prestige I don't have yet, as I experienced once again this week, and though I don't blame anyone for taking up their chances against the lesser of two teams, this makes Joe's life easier.

- 2) Most of the things I learned in this game come from Joe. Some day I came knocking at his door asking for advice, and he was really friendly and helpful, turning an average random D.2 team into a serious BBBL one. This is really hard to face a player that knows much more about the game than yourself :p

- 3) Tactical insight : I'm definitely not the best tactician around, and I'm still hesitating at the required skills needed to skillfully play some given tactics

- 4) GDP : this adds much spice into the game, as we have already seen in no more than 2 days of competition, and while I'm sure that Joe's multiskills players are well-suited to frequent tactical changes I'm not so sure about myself.

The last thing might be money. Joe has probably more than I do, and he also cashes more than me, although he has much higher expenditure. I can't rate this however, so this is something I can't discuss, since it's just speculation.

***

But in the end I would like just to say this : buy and train belgian players. I got Vaes and Claeys, 2 wonderful players who undoubtely will be NT key players some day, and that's very fun and rewarding. Not only because of merchandise, but it is pride to have a belgian flag in your team, it's motivating to see their progress and skills getting level-ups.

Everyone will be happy : more belgian means more choice, a better U21 / NT, lower prices for everyone willing to buy some, etc ...

And don't be shy : I got Marichal, undoubtely the best outside belgian player (except Okrajek) for a reasonable fee. Claeys and Vaes were even cheaper, but they require of course many seasons of training.

first of all, Happy Newyear to all managers here and i wish you all a successful season (me included ofcourse )

woooow, AthrunZala, i am speechless after such a lecture

But i've read it with much attention, because you have given me some wise advice, wise words from an experienced and wise manager, so i thank you so much for that

Though, i never knew you were such a speaker, i think you missed your calling and should have become an attorney

Last edited by Eagle at 12/31/2013 8:10:02 PM