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Its come to something when Elmacca and Astra are the voices of reason. :p

RE: Elastic effect and 1v1

I'd be very interested in peoples take on use of elastic effect and 1v1, I'd learned for training that you hammer 1v1 as it trains very fast then elastic other skills? Am I wrong?

What are the arguments for and against?

Especially applicable as our current advice to all English trainers is to carry out a full season of 1v1 before even thinking about what else to do....

thanks I advance....

JB

It's been shown that there is some balancing effect (many like to call the elastic effect) on the training of other skills

So for example if you imbalance a player out increasing their IS significantly, ID/RB/SB trains more quickly or if you increase HA, OD/PA/DR trains more quickly. I did this with my big C who normally would have popped OD once every 4 weeks at age 21, he ended up popping a random OD because of the imbalance.

However the same effects of cross training, variable skill training, trainer skill, age, height etc still apply so it is not as simple as take any player and you can train their skill up fast and easy (the forums aren't always the best source of information, it is always worth checking it out yourself). The reason for the one on one training early is precisely to encourage people to improve secondaries and in doing so they also give themselves some benefit from the balancing effect. I do not call it the elastic effect because there is so much fluff on the forums about it that and some of it is bordering on mythology. Training has changed over the years, a few years ago they did a training boost for a couple of seasons so rumours of the 9 pops in 10 weeks just isn't realistic for anything but for a max height or min height player with a level 7 trainer. Reading the more modern posts that do not reference 2010 are best to refer to when looking at it.

Because of so many variables, the 'training code' may never be cracked but the training simulator developed in the US is still an incredibly valuable tool to plan training, if you plan imbalances in (although don't go mad with those as cross training may freak your player without you meaning to) you can develop a very tidy player and get the joy of pops you had not expected.

Hi,

Thankx for the reply Vecx :)

That's the way I understood it too, so by training 1on1 which pops very fast your handling will go up with 2 other skills but then this will allow defence, jump range and passing to pop quicker when you train them.

Anyone care to chime in on the benefit of training defence first?

JB

If you are one position training then your players contribute more and it's easier to get them training minutes while winning games. A guy who can defend and pass to his teammates doesn't hurt you much. A player who can make a few shots but can't defend a position equals losses.

The thing is, you need high handling to train OD efficiently, which is another reason 1-on-1 is a popular starting point.

Anyone care to chime in on the benefit of training defence first?

As one of a small number of people who like to train aggressive players, I find training D first an absolute must. At least to a level where he's not as much of a liability.

I'm not suggesting push your OD or ID to 18+ as soon as possible, but I do feel its important at least to make a start on it.

One thing about training the OD and ID early is that your player will find it easier to get the 48 min in that position and generally they have increased utility in any position on the court, making out of position training less of a liability for your team if you are trying to maintain or increase a league position.

Anyone care to chime in on the benefit of training defence first?

The benefit of training OD first is that your player will perform better sooner since OD is a must-have skill for PG/SG/SF and a good skill to have for big men too. By perform better I mean that he can stay in games. This kid (34359550) had 8/8 starting ID/OD, you can see his fouling rate defending starting SF/PF/C who have anywhere between 40k-110k salary in D2: he does ok defensively and he's a big drag offensively (where, let's say he has very limited skills :P).

If we are talking about overall training efficiency however, you kind of must train 1v1 until the appropriate level which depends on the trainee's cap, which in turn is determined by potential.

if you increase HA, OD/PA/DR trains more quickly

This is only part of it. Both HA and DR have an effect on OD's training speed. 1v1, gives you about a pop every week in HA/DR in addition to a pop every 2.5 games in either JS or JS/IS.

Skills which give you elastic effect:
[Skill Trained]: [skills which boost the training speed of the trained skill (the higher the better)]
JS: JR+HA+DR
JR: JS+HA+DR
OD: HA+DR
HA: OD+DR
DR: JS+HA
PA: HA+DR
IS: ID
ID: IS+SB
RB: IS+ID
SB: ID+RB

Let's take this fella as an example (34504654):
He's got 7/6/7 8/7/8 6/4/6/2 and let's assume these are his starting skills at 19yo. He's a 6'1'' HoF with a 64TSP (good if he started the season like that) and an awful owner who trained his rebounding.

At the beginning his training speed with a lvl 6 trainer is:
JS (guards): 0.52 (+0.17 JR/HA/DR)
JR(SG): 0.42 (+0.27 JS + 0.12 HA/DR)
OD(PG): 0.62 (+0.12 HA/DR +0.12 ID)
HA (PG): 0.51 (+0.12 OD +0.53 DR)
DR(guards): 0.51 (+0.42 JS +0.31 HA)
PA(PG): 0.49 (+0.29 HA/DR)
This already includes some elastic effect due to the starting skills.

Now what happens to those numbers when the kid turns 20yo if you train a season of OD, DR(guards) or HA

OD 14 weeks.
The kid is now 20yo and: 7.0/8.0/12.6 8.9/7.9/8.0 6.0/6.5/6.0/2.0 (TSP 72.9)
JS (guards): 0.51 (+0.19 JR/HA/DR)
JR(SG): 0.47 (+0.27 JS +0.13 HA/DR)
OD(PG): 0.25 (+0.13 HA/DR +0.09 ID)
HA (PG): 0.67 (+0.05 OD +0.47 DR)
DR(guards): 0.45 (+0.41 JS +0.41 HA)
PA(PG): 0.56 (+0.31 HA/DR)

DR (guards) 14 weeks.
The kid is now 20yo and: 12.4/8.0/7.0 12.4/12.8/8.0 6.0/5.0/6.0/2.0 (TSP 79.6)
JS (guards): 0.4 (+0.21 JR/HA/DR)
JR(SG): 0.72 (+0.21 JS +0.09 HA/DR)
OD(PG): 0.79 (+0.09 HA/DR +0.11)
HA (PG): 0.46 (+0.16 OD +0.31 DR)
DR(guards): 0.3 (+0.32 JS +0.28 HA)
PA(PG): 0.84 (+0.21 HA/DR)

HA for 14 weeks.
The kid is now 20yo and: 7.0/8.0/8.9 13.6/13.4/8.0 6.0/5.0/6.0/2.0 (TSP: 77.9)
JS (guards): 0.70 (+0.12 JR/HA/DR)
JR(SG): 0.65 (+0.37 JS +0.07 HA/DR)
OD(PG): 0.69 (+0.07 HA/DR +0.11 ID)
HA (PG): 0.3 (+0.14 OD +0.35 DR)
DR(guards): 0.34 (+0.56 JS +0.18 HA)
PA(PG): 0.91 (+0.18 HA/DR)

The bottom line is: by training 1v1 to near the level you want it to be you effectively boost the training speed of other skills due to higher DR and HA. As you can see 1v1 trains so fast that the elastic effect boost on OD and PA is so strong that it offsets the lower training speed due to age.

Of course this works also with inside skills, with the skills I mentioned above:

the elastic effect training IS on a 6'10'' 23yo with 4.95/12.5/9.2/16.5 inside skills is

I'll answer my own question since it's obvious that nobody is going to. If you train IS (C) on this guy you will get +0.75 IS and +0.03 ID (+0.71 with a lvl 4 trainer), thus the 3 pops in 4 weeks rate.

If you check the elastic effects from inside skills, you'll notice that IS affects both RB and ID speed. This is the reason why for traditional IS/ID/RB bigs, IS was the first inside skill to be trained. The combination of elastic effects dictates the most efficient order: 1v1(fwds)>OD>IS>ID>RB

Last edited by Lemonshine at 12/10/2014 12:40:30 PM

If you have a player with lower potential it is probably ok to ignore the elastic effect and train randomly. The player will reach the cap anyways, it will just take longer.

With the above I just wanted to give some insights regarding training. People don't necessarily need to stick to the most efficient training path, but at least it helps understanding why a certain way is better than another.

The Chinese way to heavily train 1v1, is not wrong per se.

I'm not suggesting push your OD or ID to 18+ as soon as possible

Also known as Nachtmahr's way ;), but his training plans are a bit crazy and his end targets are extreme.

I'm a massive believer in the fact of training defense first. With every player I have ever trained, I've always started with this and unless told by someone who has successfully trained a world class player, I will continue too.
I do agree 1v1 at 18 can have an effect on elastic effect, but as Vecx said, training defense allows you to train a player out of position without them being a liability which consequently means more minutes.