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One thing about training the OD and ID early is that your player will find it easier to get the 48 min in that position and generally they have increased utility in any position on the court, making out of position training less of a liability for your team if you are trying to maintain or increase a league position.

Anyone care to chime in on the benefit of training defence first?

The benefit of training OD first is that your player will perform better sooner since OD is a must-have skill for PG/SG/SF and a good skill to have for big men too. By perform better I mean that he can stay in games. This kid (34359550) had 8/8 starting ID/OD, you can see his fouling rate defending starting SF/PF/C who have anywhere between 40k-110k salary in D2: he does ok defensively and he's a big drag offensively (where, let's say he has very limited skills :P).

If we are talking about overall training efficiency however, you kind of must train 1v1 until the appropriate level which depends on the trainee's cap, which in turn is determined by potential.

if you increase HA, OD/PA/DR trains more quickly

This is only part of it. Both HA and DR have an effect on OD's training speed. 1v1, gives you about a pop every week in HA/DR in addition to a pop every 2.5 games in either JS or JS/IS.

Skills which give you elastic effect:
[Skill Trained]: [skills which boost the training speed of the trained skill (the higher the better)]
JS: JR+HA+DR
JR: JS+HA+DR
OD: HA+DR
HA: OD+DR
DR: JS+HA
PA: HA+DR
IS: ID
ID: IS+SB
RB: IS+ID
SB: ID+RB

Let's take this fella as an example (34504654):
He's got 7/6/7 8/7/8 6/4/6/2 and let's assume these are his starting skills at 19yo. He's a 6'1'' HoF with a 64TSP (good if he started the season like that) and an awful owner who trained his rebounding.

At the beginning his training speed with a lvl 6 trainer is:
JS (guards): 0.52 (+0.17 JR/HA/DR)
JR(SG): 0.42 (+0.27 JS + 0.12 HA/DR)
OD(PG): 0.62 (+0.12 HA/DR +0.12 ID)
HA (PG): 0.51 (+0.12 OD +0.53 DR)
DR(guards): 0.51 (+0.42 JS +0.31 HA)
PA(PG): 0.49 (+0.29 HA/DR)
This already includes some elastic effect due to the starting skills.

Now what happens to those numbers when the kid turns 20yo if you train a season of OD, DR(guards) or HA

OD 14 weeks.
The kid is now 20yo and: 7.0/8.0/12.6 8.9/7.9/8.0 6.0/6.5/6.0/2.0 (TSP 72.9)
JS (guards): 0.51 (+0.19 JR/HA/DR)
JR(SG): 0.47 (+0.27 JS +0.13 HA/DR)
OD(PG): 0.25 (+0.13 HA/DR +0.09 ID)
HA (PG): 0.67 (+0.05 OD +0.47 DR)
DR(guards): 0.45 (+0.41 JS +0.41 HA)
PA(PG): 0.56 (+0.31 HA/DR)

DR (guards) 14 weeks.
The kid is now 20yo and: 12.4/8.0/7.0 12.4/12.8/8.0 6.0/5.0/6.0/2.0 (TSP 79.6)
JS (guards): 0.4 (+0.21 JR/HA/DR)
JR(SG): 0.72 (+0.21 JS +0.09 HA/DR)
OD(PG): 0.79 (+0.09 HA/DR +0.11)
HA (PG): 0.46 (+0.16 OD +0.31 DR)
DR(guards): 0.3 (+0.32 JS +0.28 HA)
PA(PG): 0.84 (+0.21 HA/DR)

HA for 14 weeks.
The kid is now 20yo and: 7.0/8.0/8.9 13.6/13.4/8.0 6.0/5.0/6.0/2.0 (TSP: 77.9)
JS (guards): 0.70 (+0.12 JR/HA/DR)
JR(SG): 0.65 (+0.37 JS +0.07 HA/DR)
OD(PG): 0.69 (+0.07 HA/DR +0.11 ID)
HA (PG): 0.3 (+0.14 OD +0.35 DR)
DR(guards): 0.34 (+0.56 JS +0.18 HA)
PA(PG): 0.91 (+0.18 HA/DR)

The bottom line is: by training 1v1 to near the level you want it to be you effectively boost the training speed of other skills due to higher DR and HA. As you can see 1v1 trains so fast that the elastic effect boost on OD and PA is so strong that it offsets the lower training speed due to age.

Of course this works also with inside skills, with the skills I mentioned above:

the elastic effect training IS on a 6'10'' 23yo with 4.95/12.5/9.2/16.5 inside skills is

I'll answer my own question since it's obvious that nobody is going to. If you train IS (C) on this guy you will get +0.75 IS and +0.03 ID (+0.71 with a lvl 4 trainer), thus the 3 pops in 4 weeks rate.

If you check the elastic effects from inside skills, you'll notice that IS affects both RB and ID speed. This is the reason why for traditional IS/ID/RB bigs, IS was the first inside skill to be trained. The combination of elastic effects dictates the most efficient order: 1v1(fwds)>OD>IS>ID>RB

Last edited by Lemonshine at 12/10/2014 12:40:30 PM

If you have a player with lower potential it is probably ok to ignore the elastic effect and train randomly. The player will reach the cap anyways, it will just take longer.

With the above I just wanted to give some insights regarding training. People don't necessarily need to stick to the most efficient training path, but at least it helps understanding why a certain way is better than another.

The Chinese way to heavily train 1v1, is not wrong per se.

I'm not suggesting push your OD or ID to 18+ as soon as possible

Also known as Nachtmahr's way ;), but his training plans are a bit crazy and his end targets are extreme.

I'm a massive believer in the fact of training defense first. With every player I have ever trained, I've always started with this and unless told by someone who has successfully trained a world class player, I will continue too.
I do agree 1v1 at 18 can have an effect on elastic effect, but as Vecx said, training defense allows you to train a player out of position without them being a liability which consequently means more minutes.

With every player I have ever trained, I've always started with this and unless told by someone who has successfully trained a world class player, I will continue too.

Then, let's ask Park how he trained Sharpling or JoeMaverick how he trained Connor Marshall (who has got around 150 TSP) or the manager who trained this fella (21412912) who allegedly has 158 TSP. I simply think it's impossible to train a "world class player" with that kind of totals or with legendary in several key skill without training 1v1 first.

Last edited by Lemonshine at 12/10/2014 12:58:22 PM

I simply think it's impossible to train a "world class player" with that kind of totals or with legendary in several key skill without training 1v1 first.

It's possible

While I value comments on every topic raised in this thread, I'm getting pretty sick of reading sarcasm and dare I say it, a sort of smug authority attached to some posts. If you can't really be civil in a discussion about the best way forward, and bringing the community (or at least those who are bothered about the NT) together, then really I'd prefer you to either shut up completely, or make your own thread. You're not helping.

I'm also pretty sick of people presenting opinion as facts and telling others what to do. Especially when the numbers and common sense seem to indicate the exact opposite, such as when people suggested not to train that ATG guard trainee in 1v1 to begin with which was pretty ludicrous.

I provided some numbers which are available to everyone from the US offsite project and asked for examples from people who have actually created the best players we have (had). I think everyone should be put in a condition to know what best for himself, through explaining and providing some arguments rather than having 1 or 2 people telling him what to do.

A better level of understanding of the game and training and more managers who know what they are doing, rather than 1 or 2 oracles, who speak the truth and need to be followed. No idea what your opinion is on this, but I'd like to know.

It's possible

Would you be so kind to share with us some training pattern or an example so that we can actually take this statement seriously rather than taking it as the truth because you said so? I would be very happy for you to prove your point, it would mean I'd have learnt something new. Any example of a guard with 107+ outside skill points or an overall 140+ TSP player would do (or please define your definition of 'elite' and 'world class')

Last edited by Lemonshine at 12/10/2014 6:31:45 PM

I've done it, and without jeopardising the private stats of my own players on a public form I will not go into it. If that isn't good enough for you, then I am deeply sorry, I am not trying to be deceptive, elitist or sarcastic in suggesting that it's just something you are going to have to deal with without getting upset about it.

Last edited by LA-Vecx at 12/10/2014 6:30:47 PM