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Pace of Princeton?

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From: GM-hrudey

To: HAHA
This Post:
00
261646.19 in reply to 261646.18
Date: 8/2/2014 9:51:00 AM
Overall Posts Rated:
32293229
Thanks for your reply first. I just tried Princeton tonight ... (72772920)

Most of the 3 were attempted by SG, my big men did not try many times.


They seem less likely to shoot a three against the 3-2. It seems like my big men were much happier to shoot shots against opposing big men but not as frequently when going against a guard or SF, as happens in a zone. Usually against the 3-2 you are more likely to see your big men taking driving attempts if they have good driving skill, or possibly inside shots if they have IS.

This Post:
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261646.20 in reply to 261646.18
Date: 8/2/2014 10:37:53 AM
Overall Posts Rated:
766766
the dude GDP'd you!

so probably not the best example

what i did do though is I went through the Play-by-play for Yoke Hwa
This is what occured offensively for him


Baseline jumper from T. Yoke Hwa (H). Shot missed.
T. Yoke Hwa (H) gets off a great pass to S. Chun Hua (H). S. Chun Hua (H) tries a driving layup. Shot missed.
T. Yoke Hwa (H) gets off a great pass to C. Hwa Sinn (H). C. Hwa Sinn (H) forces up a three from the top of the arc. Shot missed.
T. Yoke Hwa (H) threw the ball away.
T. Yoke Hwa (H) attempts a jump-shot from the wing
T. Yoke Hwa (H) reaches up and tries to tip it in with M. Alberman (A) right in his face. Shot missed.
P. Brâncoveanu (H) gets off a great pass to T. Yoke Hwa (H). T. Yoke Hwa (H) goes up strong for an inside shot. Shot missed.
Bodies go flying as T. Yoke Hwa (H) plows his way to the basket. Shot missed.
T. Yoke Hwa (H) goes up strong for an inside shot
Quick drop-step move leads to a two-handed dunk by T. Yoke Hwa (H)
T. Yoke Hwa (H) pulls up at the top of the key and takes a shot, guarded closely by E. Arhan (A). Scored.
T. Yoke Hwa (H) threw the ball away.
. Yoke Hwa (H) tries a driving layup, guarded closely by E. Arhan (A). Shot missed.
T. Yoke Hwa (H) backs down his defender and shoots from close range with A. Simchi (A) right in his face. Shot missed


So there are a few things to point out from there
- C doesn't take a large number of inside based shots, its more a variety. Driving, jump shot, assisted drive. One post up.
- C turns the ball over a few times.
- C attempts two assists at the start.

In general though, for a guy who plays 30 mins, he is only mentioned in the offence 14 times? This probably suggests that he is maybe 'starting' the offense or is involved in a non-assisting mnanner - eg: screens etc.

You will also notice that N. Ho pyong , who played at PF, almost exclusively took jump shots, except for a tip-in. And also, he was NEVER mentioned assisting, or attempting to assist. This also lends itself to the suggestion from the previously posted Princeton web link, that the player at 4 position will generally be in shooting positions.

worthwhile comparing what those two players do in a Look inside offense

This Post:
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261646.21 in reply to 261646.20
Date: 8/4/2014 7:10:05 AM
white snake
II.1
Overall Posts Rated:
72987298
Second Team:
Black Forest Boars
I had to search a lot, but finally I found it again:

BB-Forrest
As a former Princeton basketball player who was taught the Princeton offense by John Thompson III, and the person who programmed the Princeton offense into BB, I can assure you that BB's "Princeton" offense, only bears a passing resemblance to the real intricacies of the Princeton offense.

This is because in order to really simulate what the Princeton offense does, we would have to be simulating things completely differently... and I mean a completely different framework for thinking about how the game is run... and that simulation would be too computationally difficult and fragile to work well as a game.

We think the BB Princeton offense represents a space of tactical focus that isn't represented by the other offenses, and being former Princeton grads we thought it bared a resemblance to the sort of tactical focus the Princeton offense creates, and so we chose to name it the "Princeton offense".

I'm not going to get into the underlying dynamics of how we simulate the offense... but yes, Princeton offense is generally slow paced and results in generally more 3 pointers and layups.

This Post:
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261646.22 in reply to 261646.21
Date: 8/4/2014 8:22:38 AM
Overall Posts Rated:
6060
I have had scorers on my team but not jump shooters. This offense gives you many open looks jumper wise. This offense makes my shooters look decent. They are normally suspect.

From: Scoresby

This Post:
00
261646.23 in reply to 261646.22
Date: 8/4/2014 5:49:24 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
6161
I watched the Princeton from courtside for 10 years. In real life, you'd want 5 guys with decent outside and/or jump shooting and passing. Any player could also get looks at a backdoor layup, though I'd be curious to know if BB considers that a drive or an IS. In reality it works best against a man-to-man, since it relies on screens and mismatches. 3-2 is probably the best D against it, and that seems true in this game, too.

This Post:
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261646.24 in reply to 261646.21
Date: 8/5/2014 12:58:05 AM
Overall Posts Rated:
766766
thanks for posting that.

Yes that pretty much answers my question that i had about, how the game engine would simulate things such as off the ball screening.

If I put my programmer's hat on, the way I would program this, is take selective elements of another offense that are already programmed, and add in a multiplier to 'exemplify' these elements.

eg: It takes the elements of open JS from Patient, and the 'passing' element of Motion and adds in an 'isolation' element* and then adds in a multiplier such that these are performed slightly more efficiently in Princeton.

....or something like that.

* I asterixed this bit, beceause im geussing that BB-Forrest posted that post, BEFORE the Isolation offenses were developed? So perhaps the 'isolation' element of princeton was taken out and put into these specific isolation offenses?


This Post:
00
261646.25 in reply to 261646.24
Date: 8/5/2014 6:43:23 AM
white snake
II.1
Overall Posts Rated:
72987298
Second Team:
Black Forest Boars
eg: It takes the elements of open JS from Patient, and the 'passing' element of Motion and adds in an 'isolation' element* and then adds in a multiplier such that these are performed slightly more efficiently in Princeton.

Agree. I would go even further and say that Princeton needs more passing than Motion.
In the end you have a player who is somehow odd. JS, JR, PA, IS, DR... theoretically that's an exellent offensive player. But I don't know if such a player can use this skillset effetive in such a slow tactic. But I will find this out because from the beginning, my plan was to build a Princeton team in Utopia.

This Post:
00
261646.26 in reply to 261646.25
Date: 8/5/2014 8:22:56 AM
Overall Posts Rated:
32293229
eg: It takes the elements of open JS from Patient, and the 'passing' element of Motion and adds in an 'isolation' element* and then adds in a multiplier such that these are performed slightly more efficiently in Princeton.

Agree. I would go even further and say that Princeton needs more passing than Motion.
In the end you have a player who is somehow odd. JS, JR, PA, IS, DR... theoretically that's an exellent offensive player. But I don't know if such a player can use this skillset effetive in such a slow tactic. But I will find this out because from the beginning, my plan was to build a Princeton team in Utopia.


And more than that, everyone needs those skills. I'd say DR is much higher a priority than IS, though I noticed that the type of "inside" shots my big men took in the Princeton varied greatly depending on their skills - my guys with DR but low IS took almost exclusively driving attempts, while the guy I had with very low DR but high IS took a lot of non-driving inside shots.

This Post:
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261646.27 in reply to 261646.26
Date: 8/5/2014 9:36:55 AM
Overall Posts Rated:
766766
ahhhhhhh but is it a chicken and egg scenario?

ie: Are they driving because they have high driving?

Or are they driving because the game engine is telling them to do so? Maybe if they had low driving, the game engine would attempt to find them for the open jumper?


This Post:
00
261646.28 in reply to 261646.27
Date: 8/5/2014 10:12:22 AM
Overall Posts Rated:
6161
My guys suck at driving and they seem to do more of it in the Princeton, so I think the engine makes them. I don't like that because the philosophy of the Princeton is avoiding bad ISO matchups with passing, cutting and screening. But as the programmer said (thanks for that!), think of this as a new strategy similar to Princeton, but not Princeton.

This Post:
22
261646.29 in reply to 261646.27
Date: 8/5/2014 10:57:49 AM
Overall Posts Rated:
32293229
ahhhhhhh but is it a chicken and egg scenario?

ie: Are they driving because they have high driving?

Or are they driving because the game engine is telling them to do so? Maybe if they had low driving, the game engine would attempt to find them for the open jumper?



Clearly, I can not drink the wine in front of me.

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