BuzzerBeater Forums

BB England > NT Season 29

NT Season 29

Set priority
Show messages by
From: js8

This Post:
11
264384.192 in reply to 264384.185
Date: 12/10/2014 12:05:55 PM
Optic Fibres
EBBL
Overall Posts Rated:
569569
Second Team:
Wānaka Lakers
I'm a massive believer in the fact of training defense first. With every player I have ever trained, I've always started with this and unless told by someone who has successfully trained a world class player, I will continue too.
I do agree 1v1 at 18 can have an effect on elastic effect, but as Vecx said, training defense allows you to train a player out of position without them being a liability which consequently means more minutes.

From: Lemonshine

To: js8
This Post:
00
264384.193 in reply to 264384.192
Date: 12/10/2014 12:57:14 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
14901490
With every player I have ever trained, I've always started with this and unless told by someone who has successfully trained a world class player, I will continue too.
Then, let's ask Park how he trained Sharpling or JoeMaverick how he trained Connor Marshall (who has got around 150 TSP) or the manager who trained this fella (21412912) who allegedly has 158 TSP. I simply think it's impossible to train a "world class player" with that kind of totals or with legendary in several key skill without training 1v1 first.

Last edited by Lemonshine at 12/10/2014 12:58:22 PM

This Post:
00
264384.194 in reply to 264384.193
Date: 12/10/2014 1:12:36 PM
Tide of Fire
EBBL
Overall Posts Rated:
352352
I simply think it's impossible to train a "world class player" with that kind of totals or with legendary in several key skill without training 1v1 first.


It's possible

This Post:
22
264384.195 in reply to 264384.193
Date: 12/10/2014 1:15:23 PM
Durham Wasps
III.1
Overall Posts Rated:
16621662
Second Team:
Sunderland Boilermakers
While I value comments on every topic raised in this thread, I'm getting pretty sick of reading sarcasm and dare I say it, a sort of smug authority attached to some posts. If you can't really be civil in a discussion about the best way forward, and bringing the community (or at least those who are bothered about the NT) together, then really I'd prefer you to either shut up completely, or make your own thread. You're not helping.




This Post:
00
264384.196 in reply to 264384.195
Date: 12/10/2014 6:24:26 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
14901490
I'm also pretty sick of people presenting opinion as facts and telling others what to do. Especially when the numbers and common sense seem to indicate the exact opposite, such as when people suggested not to train that ATG guard trainee in 1v1 to begin with which was pretty ludicrous.

I provided some numbers which are available to everyone from the US offsite project and asked for examples from people who have actually created the best players we have (had). I think everyone should be put in a condition to know what best for himself, through explaining and providing some arguments rather than having 1 or 2 people telling him what to do.

A better level of understanding of the game and training and more managers who know what they are doing, rather than 1 or 2 oracles, who speak the truth and need to be followed. No idea what your opinion is on this, but I'd like to know.

This Post:
00
264384.197 in reply to 264384.194
Date: 12/10/2014 6:25:40 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
14901490
It's possible
Would you be so kind to share with us some training pattern or an example so that we can actually take this statement seriously rather than taking it as the truth because you said so? I would be very happy for you to prove your point, it would mean I'd have learnt something new. Any example of a guard with 107+ outside skill points or an overall 140+ TSP player would do (or please define your definition of 'elite' and 'world class')

Last edited by Lemonshine at 12/10/2014 6:31:45 PM

This Post:
00
264384.198 in reply to 264384.197
Date: 12/10/2014 6:29:38 PM
Tide of Fire
EBBL
Overall Posts Rated:
352352
I've done it, and without jeopardising the private stats of my own players on a public form I will not go into it. If that isn't good enough for you, then I am deeply sorry, I am not trying to be deceptive, elitist or sarcastic in suggesting that it's just something you are going to have to deal with without getting upset about it.

Last edited by LA-Vecx at 12/10/2014 6:30:47 PM

This Post:
00
264384.199 in reply to 264384.198
Date: 12/10/2014 6:42:02 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
14901490
I've done it, and without jeopardising the private stats of my own players on a public form I will not go into it.
Sorry I added a bit more. I understand and respect your position of wanting to keep your trainees skills secret and that's why I mentioned Sharpling (he's now 34 and declining, so probably sharing his skills at 30 should be ok) and Marshall (he was put on display by JoeMaverick in the past, so I'd think he'd be ok to share his stats, which I have anyways).

An example with a training plan without starting with 1v1 and an explanation of why it is structured and developed in a certain way, surely would help those people who've asked more info about training above. Also "without jeopardising" does not mean "most efficient", reaching a good target is not reaching the best possible target either, I'm sure you'll agree.

We also can agree that finding some balance with performance may be preferable than brutally going for the most efficient route, but I turn the same question I had for Gully to you too. Going forward, is it better to try and improve our average English manager (ie all of us who care to) understanding of the game/training so he's capable or choosing for himself if he wants to follow one route or another or leave that decision to someone else and follow what he suggests?

Last edited by Lemonshine at 12/10/2014 6:54:49 PM

This Post:
00
264384.200 in reply to 264384.199
Date: 12/10/2014 7:04:20 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
387387
Park didn't train Sharpling much, he bought him (from a guy who'd outbid me a couple of seasons earlier) when he was largely done. Sharpling isn't anything special from a training perspective, he's just a short arse with a lot of skill.
Sharpling had 106 outside skills at his peak, 9 more than he has now.

Last edited by Elmacca at 12/10/2014 7:12:14 PM

This Post:
33
264384.201 in reply to 264384.199
Date: 12/10/2014 7:27:32 PM
Tide of Fire
EBBL
Overall Posts Rated:
352352
For those of you not wanting to see me clarify something for Lemon please skip to the bold title half way down "In terms of..."

I do apologise, allow me to clarify.

Yes i realise jeapordising and efficient are different words, thank you for checking. Let me make it slightly clearer; I do not want to share the stats of my players on public forums hence not wanting to jeapordise the private stats of my own players, because they are private. I am also reluctant to declare how many tsp they have, I would say however that given how poor Mac was when I started, he has trained exceptionally well considering he started with 33 tsp and played his first game for the NT at age 22. Perhaps you may rate my efficiency based on that if you are willing to forgo the need to know the intimate details of his training and stats.

This may have a bearing on how efficient you feel I am, however that is ultimately not my concern, the players are doing well and as you are probably aware, there is a difference between impossible and inefficient. I never questioned what was the 'most efficient', you see me advocating one on one early, so I am not arguing against you. However you said it was impossible to go the defense route for 'a world class player' at this stage you had not specified they had to be a guard, I simply stated that it was possible because when I trained my players, Morwood wanted players with heavy inside stats so I delayed the one on one and worked hard to produce heavy primaries for him. Mac was at 100k salary at 21, trust me training his secondaries after that was painful but possible. Please don't make me explain it again, that took a lot and please just read this, no need to reply or pick holes or make a discussion out of it. I'm not arguing and the more you seem to want to argue, the less likely I am to even bother.

I see you are keen on the meaning of words, with the deepest respect, I recommend that you read the words written and interpret them according to the meaning the author intended. I am happy to address any further confusion you have with my english but I would rather you didn't feel the need to remind me that there is a difference between words such as 'jeapordise and efficient'. I used jeapordise for a reason, that reason is found in why I used not, not what you think I should be saying. Please don't hear this as criticism, I am patiently trying to explain how you have come across in your post as I am sure you did not mean to sound condescending but were just working hard to clarify for your audience.

Now to the point of this thread and the point of training for the NT

Training is always a tradeoff between the needs of a team and the desire of a coach to make compromises. 200k salary players are capable of playing in D2 teams but you make compromises. I will have 2 x 200k players in my team next season and that is a big compromise for me as it creates a big imbalance in my team and makes it harder for me to challenge for the top. For example, notice I sold Canning and Barker in order to keep Mac and Innes and bought a 30k backup to replace Canning and a 50k starter to replace Barker.

In terms of what I see as the system we ideally would set up...

Going forward the recommendation I have made in the past and am happy to make again is that we need 20 managers dedicated to training 10 for the NT (selling to EBBL if they don't plan to promote) and 10 split into 2 5's for the U21 in cycles of 2 years. That way we have enough throughput of players and balance of MVP up players coming through the system. Just 20 dedicated managers can produce a world challenging NT (Finland have 15-20 for example)

Our problem is not that we do not get enough HoF's etc. I used to agonise over not being able to save what seemed to be 12 HoF's per year who went to computer managers in a draft or the majority were drafted but not trained or just bot'd. Seriously it was the most soul dest

From: LA-Vecx

This Post:
11
264384.202 in reply to 264384.201
Date: 12/10/2014 7:29:35 PM
Tide of Fire
EBBL
Overall Posts Rated:
352352
.... geez this ran over!!! Didnt even know that was possible...


continued..

soul destroying part of being U21 manager, watching players who were awesome go BoT.

A few examples just off the top of my lists...
(30976714) - 53 tsp MVP bot
(32029051) - 53 tsp HoF never trained
(26865171) - 76 tsp HoF at age 20 went bot after not being trained beyond 21

20 committed managers working closely with the U21 and NT would be enough to produce an incredible set of players which as I have said many times while I was coaching the U21, would benefit everyone in England because the merchandising alone would go up, and our player prices would go down... The only reason our draftees are so pricey and our players are so pricey is because there are so few being produced and made available from managers who do not wish to train. It is pure supply and demand.

Lastly... forgive me for the long post, I am going to go crawl into the corner and whimper a little now - this post almost killed me

Advertisement