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Do you know why he played so much ? Did his back-up pick an injury ? Did you play "Follow strictly..." ?
I wouldn't force him on the court until he is at least horrible in stamina. He can play as a back-up. Or as a starter if you allow him to be substituted but I don't think he will perform well.
A quick fix is to train stamina a bit but others disagree so read them. It's up to you to make a choice.

So what makes you think he wasn't much weaker than the rest ?

No, I didn't notice weaker players take more shots at the clock. I think guards do and players with high DV.
I have all sorts of crappy players and a crappy OF so shots at the clock are a main feature in my games :p

because else he won't shot nearly that often like the rest ;)

I give a extreme example of someone who can not shot in my team:

(2269189) - he can not do it, he don't do it simple math ;) And when you seach his shots, 80% are with less then 4 seconds on the clock.

The number of shots a player takes are the best feedback how good his missmatch was, some other examples from my rooster:

(15069469) - puccio was the only one with offense skill in the double feature from the starting lineup, the rest have weaker skills then 7 ;) Jacot has a weak defender, the good shooters from the bench was rocha and avidano, so all who shoot weak percentages^^

(15085166) - here another game with inbalaced scorers again puccio and a bit the PF has offensiv capabilities, i play often that way in the cup^^ And you could be sure that the offense weapon takes a looot shots, people who didn't see land against the defenders won't try it.

Last edited by CrazyEye at 7/20/2009 10:20:35 AM

because else he won't shot nearly that often like the rest ;)

But he didn't. I showed he shot less than the rest on a per minute basis :)

(2269189) - he can not do it, he don't do it simple math ;) And when you seach his shots, 80% are with less then 4 seconds on the clock.

He took only 11 shots this season. It's a very small sample. Last season, he shot at 40%.
Anyway, I believe he is a bad shooter in your team, he doesn't shoot much.
Less than 4 seconds on the clock is not at the clock. It's the shots at the clock that are rarely scored, a few seconds on the clock is ok I think.

The number of shots a player takes are the best feedback how good his missmatch was

Yes, it's the most important factor. But sometimes, under special conditions, I think it can be heavily altered.
I believe the shooting percentage is also an indicator of how good the match-up was.
If you have a player constantly taking a high number of shots with a low percentage, something is not working and needs a fix. Pleading bad luck is the lazy answer :p

Sincerely, I don't understand what you want to point out with these two games. I am sorry I need you to be more specific.

The second game is interesting and shows a pattern you will find easily in other games in BB. You are beaten in both offense ratings, you have a guard with shooting skills and a relatively good match-up. He takes an overload of shots. Of course, it's favored by the good match-up but if he takes so many shots, it's also because you don't have good shot opportunities and the ball ends falling in his hands because he's a guard with a lot of time on the ball. He is not always shooting on good looks here.

so more then hundred minutes are a bad sample, but one game are?

And with my star player concept in cup i see pretty strange varies in shooting percentages, and thats say nearly nothing about the miss match if i got a miss match they "searched" it and use it a lot but sometimes they have craps in the hand. And the not so good oppurtunities don't shoot that much, but mostly with the same percentage on the long run.

But what were you commenting on ? Percentage or nr of shots taken ? I thought percentage.
Veltins, a 29 yo created in season 3 certainly has a high XP. He has good judgement and does not shoot unless very good opportunity or no other choice. He has attempted one shot every 10 mns this season. It's very low, he knows he can't shoot. So what's the relation with the first post ?

How do you interpret the differences in shooting percentages ?

we are talking about indicators, on bad shooting ;)

And if he takes shots, he ain't that bad ... And if he can get a good shot through his weak stamina, he won't take them like my linked player veltins. If he can and waste then a lot it is normally bad luck.

All right, I think we have extensively given our views and we have different interpretations.

I have always enjoyed reading your insights on the game and rate them highly.
But I'll stick to my own understanding this time :)

Thank you for the interesting conversation :p

Maybe you and Crazyeye are both right?

I really disagree with Crazyeye when it comes to stamina. If you force a guy with atrocious stamina to play the whole game, there are going to be consequences for it. And it doesn't just come at the end of the game. He needs to get off the court every quarter or his performance is going to get killed.

However, Crazeye is right that the GE will look for your best match-up. It does this based on your offensive flow and also the quality of chances you are getting in the game.

For the player in question here, I have to agree that stamina is a factor. Also a factor will be the quality of players around him.

Jump shot will only have a marginal impact for a centre, in my opinion. It is true that a higher jump shot skill (and outside shooting) will help him if he gets an opportunity to take a jump shot. But if he gets those looks, he can just pass them up until he gets an inside look instead.

Yes, that's what I understand from the rules too.
But that the GE will look for the best match-up can be misleading.

From the rules :

The central part of the game engine is how the half court offense/defense works. The general idea is that a team gets a series of opportunities to score. What kind, and what the quality of those opportunities are is a function of the offense they are running, the matchups between the offensive players and their defenders. A player must decide whether the opportunity presented is good enough to take a shot… this of course changes as a function of amongst other things… the shot clock, the players experience, the score of the game, the history of the quality of shots the team has seen recently, the offense the team is running, and whether that rookie shooting guard of yours thinks he knows better than the coach does how good he is at making jump shots.

What Crazyeye seems to say is that if a player shoots it's because he has a good opportunity. No. There is a large number of factors why a player will take a shot, it's not always because he has a good opportunity and the ball will not always go to the best match-up. A good match-up is one factor.
In the case of a player having a high number of shots with a low percentage, it's an indication that the odds were actually not good for the shots he attempted.

edit :
so no, I don't think that ShohokuZ player attempted 21 shots that were good options and missed because of bad luck :)

Last edited by Manouche at 7/20/2009 2:20:38 PM

Yes, that's what I understand from the rules too.
But that the GE will look for the best match-up can be misleading.

...

What Crazyeye seems to say is that if a player shoots it's because he has a good opportunity. No. There is a large number of factors why a player will take a shot, it's not always because he has a good opportunity and the ball will not always go to the best match-up. A good match-up is one factor.

it doesn't look for it but it has a idea of an average shot they could get, if the oppurtunity is better then the actual one they get they gamble and pass the ball and try to get a better one. So in the end the ball would end most times in good enough matchups, and not in the weakest you have.
The average shot, is affected from the time on the clock less time means less possibility to get a good look after this, and the pace you are playing.

So it don't look for the best matchup and create more chanches for them, but it will use the chanches it gets, while the bad match up won't care that they have the ball and could through it on the basket. The result is something same, a bad shooter won't take shoot, unless he is matched against a very weak defender or got the ball with time running out. And if you watch often live yousee that attack aren't that accurate in the last 5 seconds, even when it ain't a buzzer.

In my eyes this also stands there in the rules you have quoted.

Your team always tries to find the best possible shot, though the process is more convoluted than you might think -- and there are no guaranteed outcomes.

When the team gets shot opportunities in the first seconds of a possession, how do you know whether they are better or worse than the ones you might get later? You don't. Whether or not those shots are taken depends on some sort of reasonable expectation the GE has about what will happen over the possession.

So there might be cases in which passing on an ok shot will get you a better opportunity later on, and cases in which it will get you an off-balance heave from half-court at the buzzer. This, naturally, depends on tactics, match-ups, and how well your players recognize how good or how bad a shot is (the belief is the last aspect is controlled by experience).