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I don't think my posts are personal, so I don't know why you are taking them as such. This is a discussion regarding Suggestions, which are made for the purpose of the betterment of the game. Let's just stick to that. By all means it's great to get ideas brought to the table where we, the users of the game, can kick the ideas around and the game developers will use our discussion as part of their consideration for game improvements.

I think Aggressiveness as it is treated here is considered more of an innate character trait rather than something that gets "trained". The skills that are trained have an "aggressive" component by nature, for example rebounding and defense (and most of the skills for that matter) require a player to be aggressive. But it's really hard to teach a person to be Aggressive in the BB sense. Perhaps part of the problem here is that the Aggressiveness here is related to body contact and fouling and not to precision. Until about the middle of last December, Derrick Rose was famous for not getting to the free throw line too often. He has always been "aggressive" in attacking the lane, but he would go for the best shot rather than try to draw the foul. Has he suddenly become more "aggressive" in the BB sense of the term these last couple of months? Well if he did, then he should also be committing more fouls, too. I'd just say he maybe improved his Driving skill (though resulting in more FTs rather than a higher FG% on layups).

Can Aggressiveness be scouted in a hormonally-charged 18-year-old? If this could really be assessed, maybe the likes of Eddie Curry, would have been scouted differently (who would have thought that skinny Tyson Chandler would prove to be by far more aggressive than Curry?). At 18, it's not easy to tell the difference between teen frustration/immaturity with long-term aggression issues (I wonder what Dennis Rodman and Ron Artest were like at 18?). That's my opinion.

And finally, do you really want this game to be as predictable and robotic as possible? Do you also want 3-weeks' notice before a player is scheduled for an injury, or to know when your best shooter is going to go cold in a game? Sometimes, upsets happen. Sometimes, young players full of potential turn out to be busts.

"In the immortal words of Jean Paul Sartre, 'Au revoir, gopher'." - Carl Spackler

It has nothing to do with predictable or robotic. You know.. some people are more aggressive style of players by their nature that doesnt change during years. Ofc they can add some kind of system that makes player to change their personality but it would be more "playing style" not their personality. Taking too many fouls is more personality problem than playing style problem in my opinion. And that kind of personality you can tell from 18y old already. They have been playing matches long before appearing in your club's training room you know, so interview (talking with player) and their showing skills (high pressure there) should give some kind of view about player. Maybe not accurate number like 1-10 aggressive, but maybe something like: "Bob might be prone to fouls" and such like if you have played hattrick, scouts give their reports.

If they give out accurate number, it still would be ok in my opinion. There could be range factor in that number (like... 1-3, 5-7) so it would not be accurate, but sure after talking with player and watching their game you have some kind of view that is player 1 or 10 kind of aggressive. And.. if I need aggressive player in my team, I could have possibility to buy one just like in real life. Not just buy one random guy and cross my fingers while hoping for best.

In my opinion totally random system is weak and not fun. Why? Because system we have now don't have much options to keep that player away from fouling. In real life you can talk to player and stop paying wage for week or two when he doesnt listen.

edit:

Maybe add more weight to scouting system and it's interview and test matches. Like... scouts could tell that player likes to steal ball a lot and then you watch game, he does that and takes few fouls... you could tell that player is more aggressive yes? Add this report to this player permanently, so manager who is buying this player can check out "report" what this kid is capable of.

Last edited by skeletappi at 2/11/2011 10:25:27 AM

Maybe add more weight to scouting system and it's interview and test matches. Like... scouts could tell that player likes to steal ball a lot and then you watch game, he does that and takes few fouls... you could tell that player is more aggressive yes? Add this report to this player permanently, so manager who is buying this player can check out "report" what this kid is capable of.

Probably might be interesting if we could expand draft history more into deep than now. Today you can figure out the order, but thats somehow it. So if there would be any button that shows you evaluation from scout during these days, this thing could go even so far that you could see also scouts written report.

Something like: During interview was Málek very motivated and definitively would like to grow up in your club. Results of personality test and watching him in action seems to me that he might overreact in certain key situations.

You can have it whole A4, posibilities are endless. This can be even some kind of feedback by high-quality draftees for your last league or cup position (would like to be drafted by other club), which obviousely doesnt mean that you cant get him, but might be interesting to see that...

It means lot oh typing, but can create an illusion that you are deciding about new human employees.

Last edited by aigidios at 2/11/2011 11:54:19 AM

So... don't pay so much for an unknown commodity!

i think both of you are very clever and make good points but the example of fresh 18 year olds is undenyable

if you want to be able to train up a "great" u21 team standard player you will probably buy him in his first week and people pay a million + for those 5k + MVP + players

then in their first game they foul out in 36 minutes, next game they foul out in 22 minutes, third game they foul out in 16 minutes

i know someone this happened to

they are screwed, you can't train a guy like that, you have to play rookies in cup/scrim matches or lose games, even when the player is trained he will still be a dud, you can never rely on him and he will also spend a week or two injured each season

so the only option is to sell him, but it has been 3 weeks of no pops bad minutes, now bad game shape and a record that anyone with a brain can see, so if you get half what you paid for him you are lucky

now you wasted 1/3 of your training for 3 weeks, maybe lost a game or two, and all the other good trainees are long gone

yeah the current system is great...

Yes, you got my point exactly! :)

Agreed 100%, that's just what I meant.

And how many times have NBA teams sunk their fortunes on a rookie who turned out to be a bust. We're all dealing with the same risk factors. Some managers are willing to take risks on paying exorbitant sums of money on players who never played a game, and others are not. The debate about showing the Aggressiveness rating shouldn't be about how to mitigate risk, the market should take care of that.

And how many times have NBA teams sunk their fortunes on a rookie who turned out to be a bust

Probably every one. But it is already the same here, how many teams haven't drafted a dud?

the market should take care of that.

The market doesn't take care of it. I don't think it makes sense but if you look carefully at an 18 year old MVP with a $6,000 starting salary and the same player a couple of years later after they have been trained properly they are still worth about the same.

I think the European bankers from Iceland, Ireland, Greece and Portugal that told us all to trust in the market would say you are correct.

The actual comparason is you can see every stat except this one. You can see how well they handle the ball under pressure in a turly objective way, how well they can rebound which is incredibly hard to quantify, but you can't see that they have been ejected from 47 games for fighting, fouled out of every match they ever were in, get injured three times a season and have a police record. Why?

And how many times have NBA teams sunk their fortunes on a rookie who turned out to be a bust. We're all dealing with the same risk factors.

That makes the case for a hidden potential rating, more than anything.

Here's what I would like to see: visible potential and aggressiveness ratings - and maybe more, such as personality ratings, and maybe even game shape - with margins of error. That 18yo MVP you're spending $2m on may become a star, or maybe merely very good, while that unheralded allstar you landed for $2k may become the face of his country's NT. I mean, if it's realism we're aiming for, that's one way the game can go. You can call these the "non-basketball attributes" and leave the basketball attributes fairly exact.

(^^^ don't quote me on that. it's a hypothetical, and I'm not sure how I feel about it.)

Last edited by RiseandFire at 2/13/2011 5:29:16 AM

Point is, that player just isnt suddently aggressive. They have been playing for years before 18y in smaller courts and that's where scouts are looking for new players. They should have some kind of view about playing style/injuries. Aggressive action is something that doesnt just "pop up" for people, they grow like that whole their life. It's basic psychology.Big things in life can change that during years, but I guess we dont need accidents and such in real life happening for our players right? No need to be that realistic?

You know... teenage is when human starts for form their true self-image. 18y is no longer truly "teen", it's few years before that and from 18y you can quite much already say what he is going to be and what risks there are. So scouts that have been watching those kids playing... should be able to tell is player prone to injuries or fouls.

Or do you think that scouts never look youngsters playing and just when they are 18y, all players come to club and they just wish they have mentally good player? There's mental, physical and techinal attributes they are watching, starting many years before they are 18y (when they start showing their potential).

Do you think that players just pop up from nowhere to clubs, without additional information about past injuries, fouls and such?

And how many times have NBA teams sunk their fortunes on a rookie who turned out to be a bust. We're all dealing with the same risk factors.

That makes the case for a hidden potential rating, more than anything.

+1 ball

best point of the whole debate

what makes more sense to be able to see?
aggressiveness or potential?

that is the slam dunk, argument over right there