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You deserve a stiff drink and a lie down after that post..

You know.. I am going to do that, got some 18 year old single malt for just such an occaision lol!

The elastic effect is massive

I 1 on 1 trained one of my 21yo 6'11 big men until handling was 12 (sensational). I have trained passing for 7 (possibly 8 , im sure it was 7 though) weeks and had 5 pops in passing (from mediocre to Prominent) . OD is 10 HA DR 12

He looks looks awesome right now. I can see him making the NT for sure

FWIW , i have trained a u21 PG who made the world champions serbias team. I trained him in OD first and didnt really do all that much 1 vs 1 forwards. I really really regret that though.

Last edited by DanielPaton at 12/10/2014 10:22:21 PM

Park didn't train Sharpling much, he bought him (from a guy who'd outbid me a couple of seasons earlier) when he was largely done. Sharpling isn't anything special from a training perspective, he's just a short arse with a lot of skill.
Sharpling had 106 outside skills at his peak, 9 more than he has now.

Fine, this is due to my poor research. I do remember him being in the region of 106-107 when you bought him. Yes he's short, I would like to know if the trainer added OD or something else first which is counterintuitive. Spaggiari has more than 110 if I remember correctly and he's 6'0''.

It all comes down to how you create a player like that. This should be discussed and shown to people who actually intend to train an equally strong player. So they would a) understand what it takes to do it (in terms of out of position training if any) and b) why the trainer went a certain way

Last edited by Lemonshine at 12/11/2014 3:47:49 AM

For those of you not wanting to see me clarify something for Vecx please skip to the bold title half way down "In terms of..."

different words, thank you for checking. Let me make it slightly clearer....with the deepest respect, I recommend that you read the words written and interpret them according to the meaning the author intended

Ok...

However you said it was impossible to go the defense route for 'a world class player' at this stage you had not specified they had to be a guard

Fair point. I should have clarified big men are obviously out of the equation since they don't need top notch JS/OD/PA. I think everyone was talking about guards and maybe SF who can play guard, but I agree with you here.

Training is always a tradeoff between the needs of a team and the desire of a coach to make compromises.

Except you will agree that this is 6-8 seasons down the line, not at the beginning. We all know OD is the most important stat for an outside player to perform well, but if you're training OD first on a guard or on anyone with top class outside skills (SF?) and you're trying to make him into the best possible (or the best he can be as fast as possible) it's just not going to cut it. Performance-wise t's also debatable that adding 1 OD every 2 weeks is as good as 1 pop in HA/DR per week and 1 in JS/IS every 2/3 weeks, this coming from someone who plays in a league where everyone stacks OD and ID.

So there are 2 types of compromises: a salary compromise or a competitiveness compromise. The first is a real concern: you need to get it right with how much secondaries vs primaries you need to add as you don't know beforehand if you will be playing in D1 or D2 when he caps. The second not so much. I'm not sure a trainee would perform so much worse (I think it'd be be slightly worse) by doing 1v1 first and even then you're probably going be able to nearly catch up during the third season with whatever regime you picked at the beginning.

In terms of what I see as the system we ideally would set up...

Going forward the recommendation I have made in the past and am happy to make again is that we need 20 managers dedicated to training 10 for the NT (selling to EBBL if they don't plan to promote) and 10 split into 2 5's for the U21 in cycles of 2 years.

Ok sounds reasonable. We will need to do something about the lone wolves out there, to make sure they do not botch the training of those prospects who fall into their lap. Because there will people who will not be willing to subscribe to this, but we'll need all we can get. And if a manager knows what theoretically he should do with a player, the discussion/disagreements would only be on the target builds or minimum requirements (which apparently is a big no-no in England, but there are teams which have it on their front page of all places: http://www.buzzerbeater.com/country/24/nt/overview.aspx)

The bottom line is, all managers (or as many managers as possible) should know how to train efficiently. Those who accept to work for a common goal should try to build skillsets which go well with each other.

Last edited by Lemonshine at 12/11/2014 5:56:18 AM

I'm currently training a PG in my Utopia team and I wa wondering if someone is willing to give me some advice? I don't think he'll make the NT team due to his potential (however I do have a HOF trainee but he isn't as good). If anyone can hep can you bb-mail me so I can message you the skills?

Well, if you could share, I'm more interested about:
a) how long it took (to get him to say 135-140), Vecx did give an estimate for SF and I agree with him on that, but this is an actual example
b) how much out of position training you recall doing which affected your ability to compete (ie you suffered because your trainee was significantly worse than your worse backup at the position)
c) whether you trained skills in a certain order to take advantage of the elastic effect (bar the occasional deviation) or not

Sorry didn't mean it to look like an interrogation! :p

Also since you're a NT coach...d) can you estimate how many managers you have in Belgium who are committed to the NT and U21?

Once again apologies.

Last edited by Lemonshine at 12/11/2014 7:32:06 AM

You can play around with things with this:
http://sourceforge.net/projects/coachparrot/

The original thread where Joey Ka posted this can be found here: (119279.269)

There are others training simulators available, but the training tool in this model uses the latest numbers available before Wozzvt went bot and it's easy to fiddle around with it if you're good with excel (i.e. swapping around the order of training, making plans etc).

Regarding what build you should aim for, given the initial stats, height and potential of your trainee, is a different matter though.

Last edited by Lemonshine at 12/11/2014 6:30:22 AM

Once again I'm forced to point out this is the NT thread. I'm fine with generalities about training as it relates to NT players, current and future. However, I don't want to see people meandering off the subject to push their own agendas. If you don't have enough respect for me personally, then at least respect the community and the position of NT coach.

Again, I'm heartily sick now of this complete bollocks. If you want to argue about the elastic effect, how to train, Kelly Brook's breasts, do it elsewhere.

We're not yet at the stage where we've reached a consensus of what we want to do, so we're not yet able to give specific advice about training. Except where I would always be available for the same sort of advice I've been giving up to now.

If the NT coach is ok I have no problem to give the skills of Marshall. He has reached 150 as total of his skills (without ST and FT of course) this season

He's your player, I have no problem with what you do. As NT coach however, I prefer not to advertise players' skills under any circumstances, and I'm bloody livid about someone else doing so, no matter what you've done in the past.

We're not yet at the stage where we've reached a consensus of what we want to do, so we're not yet able to give specific advice about training.

Yeah. At the same time, unless I missed it, we haven't heard what your opinion is either.

If you want to argue about the elastic effect, how to train

The fact that we don't have enough elite players coming through seems to be the core of the problem, as I understand it and as others, including yourself, have pointed out before and in this very thread and elsewhere. So if you think the main problem is not training efficiently the trainees we have, please clarify your position.

I'm fine with generalities about training as it relates to NT players, current and future.

So which one is it? Is it ok to talk about it or not? Or pointing out how elastic effect works is going to deep?

However, I don't want to see people meandering off the subject to push their own agendas.

And my agenda would be? To clarify that some ways of training are more efficient than others (in a direct reply to questions asked in this thread), despite obstinate resistance on multiple fronts? That I don't think 1 or 2 managers giving advice will change anything nor improve the community nearly as much as having managers understanding better for themselves? I'm completely guilty. I'm not sure how this has nothing to do with the NT, though.

As NT coach however, I prefer not to advertise players' skills under any circumstances

I agree with this. It was more of a general point. I'm sure we don't need to get into details, but a general idea how you get there so that people have an "actual example" rather than just what someone tells them to do

Last edited by Lemonshine at 12/11/2014 7:33:23 AM