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I was wondering where the coach of a medium community with pretty mediocre teams,

You have a bigger userbase and garbage track record of success in B3, much worse than England (3-1 ko teams in the last 5 season 4-3 in the last 10). Bold words coming from a community with more mediocre teams than England. Next

Remind me when England reached a similar achievement?

We don't have a farm system and I would always be opposed to having a farming system in this game. Setting a collective achievement (for the U21!!!) by pushing the boundaries is simply a reflection of your mediocrity as managers individually. At least the Germans do or have tried to do this for their NT, which is a more natural and reasonable endeavour, without most of the negative effects your system produces. Next.

In what right do you call Israeli teams farms without a shred of proof, because they chose to run in a different way from yours?

That's what they are called: teams with the sole or main purpose of training salary monsters for the NT. Typically each farm ends up owning 1 player only because the salary is too big. These are non competitive teams in 90% of their BB life. Next.

It may be a mistake, but it is certainly not an illegitimate decision.

Finally you say something sensible. You lot you could have just said this from the beginning, but the level of hypocrisy and arrogance in your community seems to have no bounds, so you needed me to go to this length in order to admit it.
You are effectively saying if the NT/U21 staff think a player may only have an outside chance of playing in the NT, then you ask the user to train him in a way that is uneconomical and will guarantee the player will never play in the NT. Congratulations for coming out.

I will point out that you started a 114 TSP C at PF with 6 OD and 6 PA 2 JR against Spain. This is the kind of player you are saying should be ruined because he has an outside chance to make the NT (at best).

Trying to give a new coach the chance to train a 2.24 cm player for years at the point guard to give him better secondary skills is almost certainly a recipe for failure.

And yet you asked the other manager to train the PA of his 160k guy at 24yo because with 1 PA he would be unplayable. Now, if the original farm team did that at 18yo for half the time, now that player would have higher passing than he does, a slightly lower salary and would now be trained at a position where he belongs.

Any rational user would make a training plan for his player. He would check how much secondary training he can do before starting on the primaries. A 7'0''+ HoF player will indeed cap anyway after his primary training, unless you spend so long on secondaries that you won't make it in time. So it's a matter of timing. And planning.

Training primaries is easy, rewarding and working, and in the end, also brings in nice money when the player is read

Monoskilled players with bad secondaries don't sell well and cost a lot in salary. 100k for a season is 1.4 million, plus coach, plus youth trainer, plus gym which takes the cost to at least 180k. More if you train with a lvl 6 trainer. That's $2.5m per season minimum. After you spent that much money for seasons you end up selling for a fraction of your cost. The guy training the 24yo big man out with no PA at PG is paying something similar (160k+ trainer). I wonder if he realises that.

I don't know about you in England, but in Israel, we fight for each user trying to keep the game alive.

Yes and you seem to do this by providing misleading information to those users. A surefire recipe for success down the line!

I prefer suggesting users train the right way and try to succeed in the game. If you have a problem with training being too slow then take it up with Marin, but giving bad and misleading advice to further your own NT/U21 agenda is not good for user retention and people enjoying the game in the long ru

BTW, I see you were very troubled with the fact I violited the rules by writing in Hebrew. I wonder, is calling other players cheaters in the forums without proof is a legal action? Or the rules just don't apply to you?

I wasn't troubled, I thought it was fitting for the type of character you guys seem to be. I reported you for it and I'm surprised that nobody took action for so many hours.

I didn't accuse anyone of cheating, I would report the users involved if I thought there was enough proof of cheating. I simply stated the facts of what happened and said I have no way to check who was involved now. My take is that you should understand if someone thinks it's suspicious considering the general context of the system you Israeli have. Like everything that happens when a network of farms is involved (i.e. farms are not illegal, of course, but weird transactions between them may be).

In the past I reported managers and users from micronations because they passed each other money through trash players so that they were able to move their own U21 players among themselves. If you want me to formally report this instance and keep an eye on weird 'coincidences' like the one above, I'll be happy to.

Of course, you're free to report me for Cheating accusations on forums through the appropriate channel and we shall see where we get to with that.

Last edited by Lemonshine at 5/15/2019 5:45:17 AM

All I can tell you to summarize all your posts here is that I kindly reccommend you to revaluate your positions or at least reexamine your attitude towards other users and communities.

Have a nice day.

All I can tell you to summarize all your posts here is that I kindly reccommend you to revaluate your positions or at least reexamine your attitude towards other users and communities.

And I kindly recommend you to tell your NT and U21 managers, members of your community, to stop misleading new users for their gain. Will have to agree to disagree, there is no upside in discussing with arrogant people who made no solid rational arguments.

Irrational or demonstrably false points made here above include:
- High salary players with no secondary training will help you win in your league (let's take a poll, but you just need to look at the B3 winner to see this is demonstrably false)
- It is rewarding for a new manager to see skills grow (what about paying a big salary and crippling their economy, little money for competing or expanding the arena?)
- You will sell monoskilled players for a lot of $$$ (don't buy this, I have enough experience to know I need to see this happen in an auction to believe it. Currently a former Hungarian U21 starter with 23 IS and $163k salary is on the TL for $2.75m, let's see how that ends and let's see how the other 2 22yo pllayers with $100k+ salary end later today)
- You should listen to the community and give up on training a player to be the best he can for yourself and instead train for the U21 and guarantee he will never be as good as he can be (ykes)
- Training secondaries on a 7'0''+ player is useless (this is either ignorant or misleading. I already explained big men may not need DR and HA but PA and OD are another matter entirely. PA is also unaffected by height, so there is absolutely no reason not to train it. OD is slow but you are still better off training it as much as you can, as long as you still cap the player)

I don't have a problem with other communities. I have a problem with your community, the farm system that has emerged in this thread and the fact that you sell it to new managers with misleading information.





Last edited by Lemonshine at 5/15/2019 7:53:49 AM

Your "recap" of Yoav's actions are just your own interpretation made to fit your outrages claims from before, so I'd like to do a recap of my own.

You made 2 statements in your first comment:
1. "Monoskilled players do not sell well on the market"
2. "Nobody will train a 100k+ salary monoskilled player out of position"

Actually there was a third false statement about managers in Israel recommending having 6/7 trainers plus facilities, not only is that ridiculous because you don't need facilities or high level trainers for a monoskilled player, but Alon also clarified that wasn't case yet you still insist on having them as part of your "calculation" of how much it costs to train in your latest comment. whatever, on to the main dish.

Yoav pretty much destroyed both of these statements, but let's go back a bit before that. First, Alon showed you that monoskilled players do sell well, he provided one example which you dismissed as some kind of conspiracy because he was bought by an Israeli team, but when Yoav showed you one of his players was sold (for even more money) to a team in Macau and told you that the Israeli player had a bidding war over him you make up an even crazier conspiracy about Israeli team inflating the price, needless to say, backed up by zero evidence. And the player sold to Macau? Not even mentioned by you, probably because it doesn't fit with your conspiracy. No matter how to try and spin it, your statement about monoskilled players not selling well was just wrong.

Next, Yoav showed that you can train a high salary player out of position and still be competitive, but that doesn't fit your way of running a team in BB, because it's not as efficient. I mean, if you want to play the most efficient game, why not sell your entire team, buy a cheap lvl 4 coach, train a bunch of cheap trainees, sell them after 4-5 season and repeat for about 4 cycles until you have insane amounts of money, then just buy the best players, have a crazy payroll and start winning titles? probably because that would make the game boring as hell. well, some people like to see their NT/U21 (or their players in the NT) succeed just as much as their own team. I know our community is like that, maybe the English community is different and people only care about their own team. "To each their own, I guess".

You repeat all the same time after time to make youself seem smart and can't even think of the possibility that you are wrong, while actually you are (I'm also involved in our community and know what's going on there). This is a well-known sympthom, called overconfidence, which can lead to pure trolling.

but Alon also clarified that wasn't case yet you still insist on having them as part of your "calculation" of how much it costs to train in your latest comment.

I assumed a lvl 4/5 trainer. lvl 6 par is like around 80k per week including initial fee. We can agree 163k+17k=180k and 17k is entirely reasonable as the average cost for a lvl 4 trainer. Math.

And the player sold to Macau?

No matter how to try and spin it, your statement about monoskilled players not selling well was just wrong.

Macau is a micronation with 2 users and the player was on the NT at 22 when he was sold. The amount of merch that player is guaranteed to bring in means that his 150k is really not 150k. Do you think it's fair to use a guy with 10-12 seasons of guaranteed NT starts as the par value of such players? The player was also sold a couple of seasons ago and he was clearly born with 7 PA and solid 6/7 OD. As I said I don't go around saying that I've seen a $13-14m sales (which I did) from seasons ago and claiming that's the value of an equivalent player player: if you do you are misleading people

The Hungarian 22yo 7'0'' HoF player is selling tonight. Viewed by 17 people, $2.75m asking price. That guy also received only primary training. He is as good an example as any. This is also exactly the kind of player your U21 manager has repeatedly said should be trained this way due to poor secondaries.

Does he look like a fair example? I say he won't sell.

Next, Yoav showed that you can train a high salary player out of position and still be competitive, but that doesn't fit your way of running a team in BB, because it's not as efficient.

I trained not 1, but 3 players per week and 400k salary out of position in the EBBL for a large portion of the season trying to get extra pops for the NT. All the while I was piloting towards the #2 pick (which got me a 57 TSP HoF), thinking I could also win the relegation series (which I didn't due to injuries, not having HCA, fouling and a strong opponent who deserved). I contend it's not the same as training the wrong way, but your point is really laughable nonetheless.

Also I use my Utopia team as a training platform for my nation. It's a farm and it's my personal contribution to the whole game and my nation by preventing mediocre foreign users from ruining our NT material with stupid ideas like training primaries only and ending up with a worse final product.

train a bunch of cheap trainees, sell them after 4-5 season and repeat for about 4 cycles until you have insane amounts of money

I sold a level 8 potential for $5.6m (and had other 2 who were about the same level). I never trained fewer that 3 players, ever, on any team. So you're really barking at the wrong tree. And the best way to make money from training is to train multiskilled salary controlled players, not expensive players with poor secondaries. Also because users have shown this is the way you win and remain competitive at the top level (B3) and at any level

Last edited by Lemonshine at 5/15/2019 7:56:37 AM

You repeat all the same time after time to make youself seem smart and can't even think of the possibility that you are wrong, while actually you are (I'm also involved in our community and know what's going on there). This is a well-known sympthom, called overconfidence

that's because I'm not wrong. There are literally only 6 or 7 Israeli managers trying to defend farm systems and inefficient training in this thread (which also laughably upvote each other lol). I mean we get it, you group needs a farm system and to scam and swindle new users to make it all work and compete with Italy and Spain at the U21 level. It is actually quite sad, considering new managers deserve to be given honest and unbiased advice on how to succeed by more experienced managers.

, which can lead to pure trolling.

Again: community>report is your friend. Sorry you feel this way, see if that helps making you feel better for being on the wrong side of an unwinnable argument with a number of bad to terrible takes.

Will update when the Hungarian goes unsold, and hopefully gets relisted for $1, so that we see where the real value is and we disprove once and for all the only vaguely valid point you guys may have to support the shenanigans you pulled here.

Last edited by Lemonshine at 5/15/2019 7:42:09 AM

Spreading the same bullshit over and over again doesn't make you right. Well, I'm done with this pointless conversation.

Last edited by ig at 5/15/2019 7:45:32 AM

Spreading the same bullshit over and over again doesn't make you right. Well, I'm done with this pointless and meaningless conversation.

You saying that my arguments which have context and examples are bullshit just exposes you for the frauds you are. And when even the last line of defense will fall (i.e. that these players sell for millions) everyone will know you are exactly that.

And this conversation is actually VERY useful to protect unsuspecting new users from unscrupulous managers and communities that may try to convince them to do subpar training or carry huge salaries against their interest.

Last edited by Lemonshine at 5/15/2019 7:57:37 AM

You've got all the arguments from our users. Well, from now on you'll stay here alone with your VERY useful self-conversation , I guess

Last edited by ig at 5/15/2019 8:01:00 AM