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Two years of tanking to do... what, exactly? I'm baffled as to why there's a presumption that one simply is required to tank the year and a half to two years (putting aside examples of users dumped in the top league of micronations).

I see you're not a big fan of answering direct questions.

If you ask me if the fact that the sky is magenta and that it's raining unicorn turds makes people think it's time to move to another planet, I'd be a bigger fool to answer it than you would be for asking it. Your question was: "do you think a user who realises it will take 2 years of tanking (or more if he's competing) is more likely to stick with a new game rather than someone who knows it will take 1 1/2 years or less"? I categorically reject your premise, and therefore the answer is irrelevant.

At any rate, the point was that I assumed that tanking would be the most efficient way to get the ca. $7 million you need to build a very good arena (similar to most D2 teams areound the world), day trading no longer being as viable as before. I mentioned tanking only to to support the fact that you need about 6 seasons to build a similar arena to the teams competing in D2. Now if my reasoning for thinking that tanking is more efficient or if my math is wrong I invite you to correct it.

If the goal is to build a 20k arena as fast as possible, with all other factors put aside, sure, it's the fastest way. If competing in the game, growing your team for future competition, etc. matter, it's not the best way. But who signs up for a manager game to ... manage?

Let's just look at what you're asking, but with something different instead of the arena. Let's say:
"would you please be kind enough to clarify whether you think waiting 2+ years to be in the top level in your nation is:
a) a reasonable time
b) incentivises new managers to stick with the game

Straw man once again. You seem to be very adept at building arguments that do not exist. I think people are able to understand the difference of having the chance to get there and actually doing it, thanks. The arena is just a mean to level the playing field. I'm afraid I will refrain to answer to further provocative straw man arguments.

I see, again, you're not a big fan of answering direct questions. ;)

It's the same argument, except that of course one makes explicit the assumption that you're competing against people from your league/country and the other ignores that and insteads focusing on "leveling the playing field" as if a user should worry more about what happened 36 months or more ago to teams they're never playing.

You're claiming that it'll take new users two years of tanking or more if competing, and I'm of the opinion that you're wrong

I shall eagerly wait for you to provide evidence that it's possible to build a 14k-4k-500-50 arena in less than 6 seasons without daytrading. Note that this is kind of normal for over half the teams in competitive D2 leagues I've seen (can try and provide actual numbers if you challenge this). If you can prove this we can end this discussion and your method should go straight in a post for new managers so that they all aware and can benefit from it.

Seems like a couple of people have already posted this.

Now, the counterpoint: prove that you have to have a 14k-4k-500-50 arena to be competitive, and that the inability to do so is responsible for even a quarter of the people who leave the game. On the last point, since neither of us have details about why users leave as a general matter, please feel free to cite the people who claim that this needs to be fixed, as compared to the number of posts about how many people think LI was overbalanced or training needs to be fixed or game shape training needs to go away or the blank lineup is overpowered or how GDP is overpowered or the draft needs to be fixed or... well, you get the point.

Last edited by GM-Perpete at 11/3/2014 7:58:41 PM

Ok so we're stuck at 2 years. I think I can get to 19-20k with 6-7k LT in 2 years as well especially if I promote to the EBBL (which nearly happened in my 5th season).

Now, do you think this kind of timeframe reduces user retention or not? And if you think it does, do you think lowering arena seats cost would help keeping more new managers (among other measures affecting training or something else I'm not even considering)?

Now this is a well reasoned counter argument rather than Utopia Ants and flying unicorn turds. I do not and I have never have suggested any drastic change, not for the arena and not for training, although I suspect the flying-unicorn-turd man, will actually argue the opposite based my previous out-of-context or non-existent statements.

If you think user retention is not a priority, then are you also against boosting the number of managers via App or Marketing?

I categorically reject your premise, and therefore the answer is irrelevant.

The premise being? Just wanna make sure we're still on the same planet. As I say blue and you say it's not magenta.

If the goal is to build a 20k arena as fast as possible, with all other factors put aside, sure, it's the fastest way. If competing in the game, growing your team for future competition, etc. matter, it's not the best way. But who signs up for a manager game to ... manage?

Again this is your opinion based and you assume everyone thinks rationally or share your point of view. I'm not sure if you really believe most new users (again I don't mean you and I) are willing to invest 2 years just to get to a point where their revenues are close to those of their opponents. D3 in England has plenty of 20k arena teams and that's the division you start in.

It's the same argument, except that of course one makes explicit the assumption that you're competing against people from your league/country and the other ignores that and insteads focusing on "leveling the playing field" as if a user should worry more about what happened 36 months or more ago to teams they're never playing.

This is again your view of this game (and mine too) and there is no evidence whatsoever that the new managers see the game this way. Perhaps the correct way to address this would be to ask new managers what they believe the worst aspects of their "induction" are and what bothers them the most. So we can stop ranting about opinions and arguing without a shred of evidence.

Now, the counterpoint: prove that you have to have a 14k-4k-500-50 arena to be competitive, and that the inability to do so is responsible for even a quarter of the people who leave the game. On the last point, since neither of us have details about why users leave as a general matter, please feel free to cite the people who claim that this needs to be fixed, as compared to the number of posts about how many people think LI was overbalanced or training needs to be fixed or game shape training needs to go away or the blank lineup is overpowered or how GDP is overpowered or the draft needs to be fixed or... well, you get the point.

Straw man again as of course I've never said that this should be a top priority. My point, so that we're clear once and for all, is that user retention should be combined with bringing in new users via app or marketing. This discussion started in the first thread where someone suggested faster training as a mean to retain more players. I just added that another big barrier was spending a huge amount of cash and time towards the arena. What I got in response here are Utopia ants and flying unicord turds.

At least we seem to agree that nobody here has any evidence to back up his claims except that it does take about 2 years to buld a competitive arena. The correct way to address this would be to ask the new managers what they think. Unless of course you also believe that people who think 2 years are too long shouldn't play this game.

Last edited by Lemonshine at 11/3/2014 6:12:46 PM

At least we seem to agree that nobody here has any evidence to back up his claims except that it does take about 2 years to buld a competitive arena. The correct way to address this would be to ask the new managers what they think. Unless of course you also believe that people who think 2 years are too long shouldn't play this game.

Clearly, we'd need to ask people what their idea of competitive is, since we're several thousand words into this by now and we can't even agree on that. I will point out for the record that 11 of the 16 teams in the NBBA currently fail to feature a 20k arena either, so I suppose you may be right and the problem is worse than I feared. If the top teams in one of the toughest countries in the BB world can't even have competitive arenas after all their time playing the game, what hope do any other teams have?

The correct way to address this would be to ask the new managers what they think. Unless of course you also believe that people who think 2 years are too long shouldn't play this game.

In my humble opinion, it is not the size of an arena which is the biggest hurdle to new managers in this game, but instead it is the knowledge of the game.

I would think that 2 years is a reasonable expectation about the time period it would take to acquire that experience and knowledge.

I believe that the lower divisions should be the training grounds of "learning" managers and I also think it is appropriate that the arena "matures"at the 2 year point which is about the same time that a "good new manager" is ready to tackle Div II or 1 in a reasonably size country.

Should new Managers be able to compete "equally" with seasoned experienced Managers in this game, straight away, then this game will cease to be the strategic challenge that it is.

Should new Managers be able to compete equally straight with the most experienced managers. then I reckon they're going to get quickly bored because they will have nothing to aspire to

Rather than enabling new managers to be able to run before they are walk (build stadiums to completion before they learn the game), I believe that it would be better if we could speed up the rate that managers can gain the level of knowledge required to compete with the best

I.e. more resources that aspiring managers can access , perhaps Youtube training sessions or interviews

Utopia has shown me that there are lots of long term participants in this game who just havent got a clue

i.e. gameshape etc etc etc

Last edited by Sid Vicious at 11/4/2014 5:30:46 AM

I will point out for the record that 11 of the 16 teams in the NBBA currently fail to feature a 20k arena

King of declarative statements and now also adept to cherry picking:
14k+4K+500+50=18550
Number of NBBA teams below 18k arena: 3. Number of teams below 17.7k: 1 (who has 0 wins in the league, will see how long it takes before he wins a game).
Number of teams above 18.9k arena:11

If you don't see the fallacy in your reasoning I can't do it for you, mate.

Here's what you wrote:

Incidentally, I think you're committing a fallacy that a lot of people make - equating things that you personally don't like and assuming that it's the reason for something else you don't like

You don't see how this perfectly applies to you, do you?

I've never mentioned half the points you guys are trying to counter here. In particular, I've never said or thought new managers should be allowed to compete on equal grounds "straight" away. I said that it likely that new managers find a 2 year time period to train players and complete the arena to be a too high time investment for a new game.

There is an issue with user retention. The game is complex and it takes 2 years to compete on equal grounds. If people are voting to increase the number of new users (app/marketing of the game are still topping the vote I believe) then increasing user retention also seems logical.

Possible issues which should be checked with the new managers themselves so that we understand which one needs addressing the most:
- Complexity of the game (your point). It takes 2 years for an average human being to understand the nuances of the game.
- Training is too slow, it takes 2 years to raise a trainee from scratch (someone made a similar point in the other thread and I agree this is an issue)
- Arena building is too slow, it takes 2 years. On top of this it was not this slow in the early seasons so this is not by design. (my point)
- There is no issue with waiting 2 years because those who can't wait that long shouldn't be playing this game or we don't want them playing this game (CaptainTeemo)
- I don't know what you're talking about/ I can't contribute any opinion on the subject (GM-hrudey)

CaptainTeemo's seems like a logical standpoint.

Last edited by Lemonshine at 11/4/2014 4:47:21 AM