BuzzerBeater Forums

Against that high defense I think most offenses have trouble.

That's true but flow is a team's rating not individual only, so provided that you have decent passing spread out among your players, you might have a decent and 'reasonable' shot distribution in LI/PTB/Princeton pretty much any 'focused' tactic. In ISOs, if I'm understanding correctly, if the go-to guy can't overpower his defender you're toast, much like in Patient, except in Patient the designated scorer will just try to score and in ISOs he can also create for others (so he has more options).

tried Outside Iso last game with a SG at PF slot - inconclusive as far as i can tell

My players took mostly inside shots or drives to the hoop based on the PBP but in fairness my PG has high driving and his C looked overmatched (170k sallary vs 40k). Shot distribution appeared even at all positions. Flipside I have decent to good passing / driving at all positions.

Also had way too many fouls than normal.

I played 3-2 he played M2M. Weboth set TIE

People in my league (with top teams) hate ISOs. Apparently when there is no clear mismatch and you go against very good defenses (for your level of offense) the shot selection is not as 'reasonable' as in other tactics.

NTs have been widely using ISOs for some time now, and it does look like overcoming strong defenses (at least getting to nice percentages vs. the defense level in front).
(32376)
(32391)

A main difference with Patient I see then is the shot distribution, since there's no previously appointed position.
I also think the engine selects the isolated player on a play-by-play basis, which would contribute to the balanced.

I guess the conclusion to be successful with ISOs is, basically, to train perimeter players in inside skills, and viceversa. Then obviously supported by 5 players with DR-HN and also PS as an extra.

Well let's put it this way: a player with 170k salary (a NT player) with 19 OD will also have reasonable high Passing, JS, DR, you name it, so the situation is a bit different compared to 80k-90k players with 19-20 OD. So that we're clear 19/13/19 18/20/15 9/9/x/x has a salary of roughly 170k with the current parameters I think. With an 80k salary your player will look more like this: 17/11/18 15/16/14 9/9/x/x. If you go lower than 80k you will have to sacrifice PA, JS, perhaps driving even further.

The 2 players above will perform very differently against a defender with 19 OD. That's why, I don't think, you can take the NT as a general example to draw general conclusions.

That's a good point, it's usual to face high defenses on a club level (it doesn't cost that much) while your offense does not get there (due to money, again) comparing to NT teams. Thank you.

What do people say about which skills are necessary for isolation offences?

Probably you need the iso guys to be able to dominate their defenders.

I have a nice example from my own league on why people think isos don't work unless you are at super-high level (NT or at least D1) or playing against weaker competition: (79191190)
bbstats: 152 to 128 (+24 to me and nearly a 20% extra on the 128)
Team efficiency: 98 to 80 (another 20% to me)
PP100: mine was better at nearly every position (except for PF where my kid lost out to his opponent 72.5 to 75.9)

Both my guards have high passing and my SG has also pretty good scoring skills, but my opponents' guards have very high OD, especially the guy guarding my SG, who was likely the go-to guy.



Last edited by Lemonshine at 3/25/2015 9:34:02 AM

Thank you so much.

I might mail you.

What do people say about which skills are necessary for isolation offences?

We had a guy that ran a lot of inside isolation in our league a few seasons back, and he was quite successful with it. I would say that the most important skill can be guessed from the game manual pretty easily when you read the following parts:

Isolation offenses: The team will try to find their best offensive player and clear out an area for him to create his own shot.

Driving: Allows the player to create his own shot without a good pass from a teammate. Better driving creates shots more often and creates better shots on average.

yeah and if the ISO guy doesn't have enough DR to get himself an open shot? He will either take a contested shot or he will pass. I think we already established earlier in the thread that the ISO player creates the offense, he doesn't necessarily look for his own shot, but he might create for others (passing). This is consistent with what others have said and is consistent with my big men scoring at a much better clip that they should have done in the game above (they mostly had open shots).

If you can run an analysis in buzzer-control of the above game you'll be also able to see how many open shots my SG took. One of the thing that do not make sense in the GE right now is that in many cases an open shot has a lower FG% than a guarded shot (depending on the specific defender and the type of shot). So let's put it this way: if your ISO player has very high driving he may be able to consistently get an open shot. Is an open shot going to be more efficient than a guarded shot? Not necessarily as Trainerman has argued repeatedly bringing data and evidence to support his claim (this is particularly evident on lay ups for guards and 3 pointers for big men).

You talk about DR and point to the Game Manual as if you're giving any meaningful information. I know for a fact that the defender on my SG in the game had more than 20 OD (and good ID). So the useful information about DR you should provide, if you are able to, is how much DR is needed to overcome 20-10 OD-ID to get an open shot. Even a ballpark figure would do.

Last edited by Lemonshine at 3/25/2015 10:02:54 AM

I'd like to see more examples like this, and also comparisons to other games with other offenses to better conclude if ISO's work or not. Another conclusion you can make is that the ISO offense you ran generated good offensive BBstats and PP100's. That those better stats didn't result in a win could be caused by other factors than the ISO offense. If you can provide more examples and comparisons, we can check if those offensive BBstats and PP100's generated by the ISO offense are good compared to when your team runs other offenses (of course they are influenced by other factors such as gameshape), and wether you end up with losses consistently when using the ISO offense despite better BBstats/PP100's.

As of now, it can simply be a case of bad luck with the game engine that caused you to lose despite being the better team (and the ISO offense could have contributed to you being the better team).

This is one of my own games running outside ISO: (79200943)
BBstats were only slightly in my favor; his defense was better than my offense but still I won by 13 points. He did play TIE but I believe that is accounted for by the BBstats. Also interestingly he used Outside Box+1 so he was matched up well defensively. I think this game the ISO was effective; if you look at the BBstats, you'd expect a closer outcome. PP100 are in my favor so looking at that the result is consistent with the input. At least here the ISO didn't fail despite a stronger defense.

Last edited by Jeründerbar at 3/25/2015 12:37:02 PM