BuzzerBeater Forums

BB Global (English) > Training system discussion (yes, again)

Training system discussion (yes, again)

Set priority
Show messages by
This Post:
00
277274.23 in reply to 277274.22
Date: 2/21/2016 6:57:08 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
370370
...incentive in place to train players simply as commodities to be moved to other teams...

Welcome to the club, although there's nothing new there. I've been pointing that out for quite some time now.

This Post:
44
277274.24 in reply to 277274.23
Date: 2/21/2016 7:06:29 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
32293229
...incentive in place to train players simply as commodities to be moved to other teams...

Welcome to the club, although there's nothing new there. I've been pointing that out for quite some time now.


I haven't joined your club. I have said that the specific proposal would be a step in that direction, which would be bad. The current training setup doesn't allow training enough players to make them commodities as much; as it is, you can't train a homegrown team since once you train the guards, and then the big men, the guards are going to start losing skills. Adding twice as many players but still having it take 6-7 seasons to train the guards and then 6-7 to train the big men would just be rearranging the seating chart at your pity party.

This Post:
00
277274.25 in reply to 277274.24
Date: 2/21/2016 7:35:37 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
370370
...incentive in place to train players simply as commodities to be moved to other teams...

Welcome to the club, although there's nothing new there. I've been pointing that out for quite some time now.

I haven't joined your club. I have said that the specific proposal would be a step in that direction, which would be bad. The current training setup doesn't allow training enough players to make them commodities as much; as it is, you can't train a homegrown team since once you train the guards, and then the big men, the guards are going to start losing skills. Adding twice as many players but still having it take 6-7 seasons to train the guards and then 6-7 to train the big men would just be rearranging the seating chart at your pity party.

See that bolded part? We agree again! Welcome to the club.

And nobody said that the commodity training and sale system that we have now works well as a commodity trading system, either ... so again we agree. You do a good job of pointing out how incomplete it is if the goal is to develop enough commodity to stock an entire team, and I agree! Let's face it, the more we analyze it the more we agree, although I understand that it is politically incorrect around here to agree with Mike Franks, even when we are both right.

From: lvess

This Post:
00
277274.26 in reply to 277274.24
Date: 2/21/2016 9:38:45 PM
Delaware 87ers
II.3
Overall Posts Rated:
310310
...incentive in place to train players simply as commodities to be moved to other teams...

Welcome to the club, although there's nothing new there. I've been pointing that out for quite some time now.


I haven't joined your club. I have said that the specific proposal would be a step in that direction, which would be bad. The current training setup doesn't allow training enough players to make them commodities as much; as it is, you can't train a homegrown team since once you train the guards, and then the big men, the guards are going to start losing skills. Adding twice as many players but still having it take 6-7 seasons to train the guards and then 6-7 to train the big men would just be rearranging the seating chart at your pity party.


A couple things:

1) 6-7 seasons to build a player is certainly reasonable in a management sim like this. I play in an American Football sim where it takes upwards of 7-8 seasons for players to reach full builds.

2) The problem with taking 6-7 seasons here is that only trains you a fraction of your overall roster at max training speed. This discourages owners from sticking around. In the Football sim example above I can train an entire roster of 50-60 players at max training speed. After 7-8 seasons an owner can have an entire starting lineup at full builds and be training the next generation of players.

3) I simply don't understand the benefit of having a player's training tied to the position they play instead of letting owners set a player's training individually. Let's use a 12-man roster for example. Right now you could train 3 or 6 or 9 players in one skill (let's say Passing) each week. Disconnect training from which position a player is used at and allow each player to be assigned to train at a different skill each week and in one week you could train:

Passing - 3 players
Rebounding - 3 players
Jump Shot - 3 players
Free Throws - 3 players

Then keep or rotate as needed over the rest of the season.

4) Players are considered commodities now exactly because you can only train so few at maximum effectiveness. Allow each player to be set to train a different skill each week and now teams will not only have an incentive to build around a team of player but all teams can train players and become competitive quicker.

5) As teams can build more players better and more effectively themselves, the market for expensive fully built players will dry up (or at least get somewhat cheaper). That said, a side effect of this might be that 18 and 19 year old players may get more expensive. However, those two might balance each other out.

6) With all that in place, the only thing an owner needs to worry about is getting a player 48 (or 36 or some other number) minutes each week regardless of which position it is in. No more using players out of position and sacrificing/tanking a game or season to train 1-2 players (which solves another perceived problem as well).

Last edited by lvess at 2/21/2016 9:40:45 PM

Message deleted
This Post:
11
277274.28 in reply to 277274.24
Date: 2/22/2016 4:39:33 AM
Overall Posts Rated:
14901490
I remember your overhaul proposal for the training system and I think it might be a good starting point if they decide to go down that route.

I opened this thread because I think the prices currently are unsustainable, because it will take a lot of seasons before the situation stabilises through players coming through via training and therefore I think it's fair that after they took away cash with higher floors and luxury tax they give us something more on training.

From: GM-hrudey

This Post:
00
277274.29 in reply to 277274.26
Date: 2/22/2016 10:56:16 AM
Overall Posts Rated:
32293229
I'm a bit short of time now to quote and edit your post. I think the ideas of training different players in different skills each week is great for a single player type management game (like FM for example). I think that in an online game with users coming and going, though, the problem is that if everyone can train optimally and compete optimally every week, as most "full team" training proposals would have, this would simply make it easier for teams at higher levels who generally choose to sacrifice training because of the competition at the top.

I think there needs to be a clear and meaningful choice to be made in terms of training and competitiveness - the current method of making them play in a position for 48 minutes is one way of doing that. I'm not convinced it's the best - I'd rather see sliders where you can put a percentage of training time into stamina, a percentage into FT, a percentage into GS and a percentage into skill improvement, and then just training the players who start in the training position so minute maximization is no longer required.