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Day trading?

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This Post:
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68476.23 in reply to 68476.20
Date: 1/18/2009 4:43:58 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
6161
Should BB decide it has to go, that nobody even can daytrade, it is easy to establish. A player bought needs to stay in the team for at least a full season, and has to play at least 15 games before he can get sold. End of trading. Period. This wouldn't even limit selling your own draftees and trainees.
So untill BB brings such a system, they do not want to destroy daytrading, because it IS part of the game.

If tomorrow someone comes to the forums complainting that expanding arena's gives an unfair advantage, what would you like BB to do? Set default arena sizes for all teams?
Do not reply to me by telling it is diffrent, because it isn't. It's part of the game. And the one who wants to see it gone can say just as well this is a manager simulation, where setting your tactics is the key, and arenadiffrences are unfair. To me it is just as valid as your argument.
Every aspect in BB is part of the game. if something arises BB wants out of it, they will make sure it happens. So if they don't, it's part of the game.

Hope you understand.


Totally agree. Day trading is definitely part of the game. BB seems to be doing what they can to limit the advantage. If you have a market system in place to buy/sell players, there will always be people pushing the limits.

I for one like to have the opportunity to find a player on the TL for my team, and then sell a current one on my roster. So if the player I am selling has been on my team for only a few days, it might look like I am day trading. Really, I am just upgrading my team becasue I found a good deal on the TL. I accept the reduced amount I get from the sale because I did it to improve my team. I think that's the way the market is intended. IMO.

From: Astragoth

This Post:
00
68476.24 in reply to 68476.21
Date: 1/18/2009 6:32:17 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
167167
i totally agree with you mate... on 2 points.

point 1) I used to post alot on the forums, but they are not discussions, because the majority off the people (like in real life) don´t listen to the points you bring up, the facts or your opinions. They will come up with reasons as to why you are wrong and are more interested than to argue than to have a healthy discussion. So i stopped posting. Just posting this to let you know you are right and not wrong...

point 2) I have been looking to improve my squad for weeks and weeks. I thought I have the money to do so, I can´t. Simply because "daytraders" or people that use the transfer market in a smart way or whatever you want to call it, buy players for inflated prices. Once when we put a BB account holder on the forums who had funny looking transactions on his transfer list we were told (rightfully) we shouldnt discuss this on the forums, we also got a reply that it was totally fair. Over the past few weeks, I have seen so many accounts with a few too many transfers where the buyer or seller disappeared in their transfer list and that are blatently daytrading. The problem is I am not allowed to post names here so wont do this. I will also not report them, because nothing will be done about it. Because these people with the too many funny transfers are still riding high and I am sure someone will have reported them already...

You are right to claim that daytrading will destroy the game in the long run, like it did to hattrick. The last 2-3 seasons they have been trying very hard to clamp daytrading in hattrick down. 1) i wonder why? because it is fair and good for the transfermarket and the economy like some state in this "discussion" 2) because it is the way the hattrick developers wanted to see hattrick develop? A game where most the daytraders are riding high? Off course there are some exceptions, but daytrading takes time too. Lets hope you and me are these excpetions. You cant do it in a week or two. In a season or 2 - 3 we will see many leagues won by daytraders.

As some stated in this "discussion" the daytraders make so much money because the new players buy the players at inflated prices and call these new players "stupid". Sorry, they are NEW players that means automatically stupid. I started like that in hattrick and I am sure many start like that in this game. Buying players you think that are good value for money without knowing that the best strategy is either to daytrade or to buy and train young players. You are given free virtual money!!! Like in the real world, when humans are given free money they want to spend it and feel powerfull.

I am afraid that like in hattrick the BB developers will take about 35 seasons to realise how bad daytrading really is. They surely havent played hattrick, else they would recognise that.

My final conclusion is my dear friend Sosta, the fun element (for me) in this game and hattrick is to see your players grow, and to perhaps one day gain honours, like U21 selection, NT or perhaps gain MVP in the highest league even if they end up in another team. That is what keeps me going and nothing else.

Last edited by Astragoth at 1/18/2009 6:34:13 PM

This Post:
00
68476.25 in reply to 68476.20
Date: 1/18/2009 6:38:03 PM
Tiptoners
III.14
Overall Posts Rated:
1212
As a GM , I think the task of GMs is to answer and help people with their questions as good as possible, as long as it is within the margins of the rules.

I like to point out to you that you seem to request from others that they read your posts well, while you don't seemed to have noticed I actually was discouraging daytrading by telling it is prety hard to do. And it is!


Indeed and we thank you for that and from what I have seen until now I have to say I really appreciate your efforts.
But you did nt really discourage him because its not hard to do and all it needs its time.
Maybe you could explain him and then tell him maybe its allowed in the game but it s not what this game is really about. But then again I am not qualified to tell you how to do your job.

buying a 2k player and selling him for 125k to a noob isn't daytrading, it's cheating, and GMs WILL reduce the economy of the seller to a regular price for the player, which will nullify the profit, while the seller still paid the tax.
So doing this kind of 'trading' is a no go!

Believe me. Even the cracks at daytrading can't make a huge amount from it.


Please I would be very glad if you would tell me if the following trade (which I posted above as a small example) is cheating while he made about 170,000$ in 3 days: (as well as the other examples I have mentioned plz)
[{quote}]
This player
http://www.buzzerbeater.com/BBWeb/playerbox.aspx?PlayerID...
was bought and sold within 3 days. It made a 177,600$ profit for his seller!!!
In just 3 days! From just one player! Without any additional training obviously so one could justify his earnings after the work he had done!!!

I know a LOT of players who need 8 or more weeks to make this profit. So this is not a 2k salary player for a new players. I ve seen much worst cases. This is just a recent one I recorded.

That is unfair advantage and that is why it is destroying the game.
[//quote]

And I have seen much more and worst cases...

For your second paragraph I am totally puzzled about how you can write such a controversy.
It is absolutely IMPOSSIBLE to not get advantage from daytrading if you do it right. You put training and game play at the other end of the balance, but truth is that when everyone manages to do this all correct and gains maximum benefit from it, the gain from daytrading, even though limited by BB, will ALWAYS be an advantage, no matter how you turn it.

As it is now you are right. What I am saying over and over is not eliminating Daytrading but rather restricting the grand profits from it. I gave suggestions above they would do it without chocking normal and "legal" economy without altering normal "training" sells or team upgrading tactics. When you buy a player and then you decide that does nt suit you or you got a better one you can sell him back. And if you sell him a bit more than you bought him you have your money back and all is ok. But if you sell him a LOT more then you get your money back and a mediocre or even a good profit but not a grand one!!!!!

Should BB decide it has to go, that nobody even can daytrade, it is easy to establish. A player bought needs to stay in the team for at least a full season, and has to play at least 15 games before he can get sold. End of trading. Period. This wouldn't even limit selling your own draftees and trainees.
So untill BB brings such a system, they do not want to destroy daytrading, because it IS part of the game.


Again I never said to go away all together. I keep saying that over and over again.
I say restrict the unfair unblanced advantages meaning rampant profits from people who abuse this system! And since it IS part of the game I still wonder why my post in the thread (68835.1) was deleted.

to be continued...

This Post:
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68476.26 in reply to 68476.24
Date: 1/18/2009 6:49:14 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
167167
i have to add one thing... there is a small posibility they do something about daytrading, but that in no way we can see the results (like prices stay the same instead of getting changed on their transferlist etc). I think if a player cheats, by daytrading, it should be shown in the transferlist a player got punished for it when they reduce the price they received for the player.

Secondly, it is funny so many people also GM´s keep saying that daytraders get punished for overselling. Do they even know by how big a difference players get sold? What the values are where BB developers (in case they do punish "cheaters") punish cheaters. Is it selling 1 player for 5 million when their transfer value is 1 million? Because 1 player doing this and someone being so stupid and paying this in my opinion is less big a problem than one guy having every month 20 transfers and make $50000 per transfer all players bought for $1000. I am 300% certain these transfers hardly get noticed and punished. But do your own maths, we could be talking about 10´s off millions and I have seen it in BB already...

If the BB developers want to allow this kind off activity fair enough, but than don´t act/say you are tackling these kind off practices.

And to reply to what someone said. Limiting players to be sold when they are new to the team like they do in hattrick would cause problems for draftees? I am surely that you can program the game in a way to excempt draftees for the first time when they get sold...

This Post:
00
68476.27 in reply to 68476.20
Date: 1/18/2009 6:53:16 PM
Tiptoners
III.14
Overall Posts Rated:
1212
...continued

If tomorrow someone comes to the forums complainting that expanding arena's gives an unfair advantage, what would you like BB to do? Set default arena sizes for all teams?
Do not reply to me by telling it is diffrent, because it isn't. It's part of the game. And the one who wants to see it gone can say just as well this is a manager simulation, where setting your tactics is the key, and arenadiffrences are unfair. To me it is just as valid as your argument.


Well :-) It is Different :-)
Arena and its seats are your team's resources and you need to manage that as well.
And you need to maximize your resources as a manager.
And to do that you need planning and strategy for it as well. You need to see how many fans are coming, how to maximize their amounts their revenues and your income from them. You need to plan ahead your arena size and you need to plan your tickets price strategy and you need to invest for it.

Now a player that has been in your team for a whole 1!!!! minute!!!! its not a team's resource. And it needs no planning no strategy. Just time for research player prices and some clicks. No plan No strategy No game play No brain work.
But still more earning than the arena size optimizing.....

I know that it an aspect of the game :-) But the way it is now it gives negative input to it and not added value for the game and its game play.
But if BB wont see that then maybe :-) I ll start using this aspect as well so I stay competitive with the others and advance faster :-) Ah yes and dont forget the servers overload if a lot of people start doing it ;-)

BTW check please my suggestion (69216.1) and tell me if that would help at all...
Thank you again. I am just trying to suggest to keep and preserve the fun and the purpose of this game.

From: Sosta

This Post:
00
68476.28 in reply to 68476.26
Date: 1/18/2009 7:03:16 PM
Tiptoners
III.14
Overall Posts Rated:
1212
Thank you for giving another point of view of the same problems.
Another view that I would nt be able to show myself alone.

Maybe a suggestion I posted (69216.1) could help bring more fun and depth to the game and a bit less Daytrading.
(among the other suggestions I made in above posts)

From: Framer

This Post:
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68476.29 in reply to 68476.28
Date: 1/18/2009 7:57:52 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
00
I am still a noobie but from my point of view it looks like if there were some sort of rule that made it so if someone just bought a player ---and within a short period of time they sell him again. The minimum bid price they have to set should be several thousand lower than they paid for him that way there is alot more risk with the possibility of someone buying him for less than they paid for him plus the tax hit it would make daytrading a much more risky way to earn money but still be possible if you really do research. But not make anyone rich in a few days.I notice most guys who daytrade for profit buy a player then start his asking price much higher than what he bought the player for so if he gets ANY bid he makes money...

This Post:
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68476.30 in reply to 68476.29
Date: 1/18/2009 11:13:21 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
103103
While I agree mostly with what the GM said about it being part of the game, I must disagree with the proposed parallel between daytrading being similar to managing your arena. Swing and miss, sorry. Arena takes planning, ticket price management, and level of competition as well as other considerations. It is a strategy. Daytrading is an advantage that people who have computer and internet at work get over those of us who dont. Someone stated that in HT the top teams dont necesarily daytrade, but the majority of them do work in offices.....with computer access 24 hours. Yes, I have set my alarm for the middle of the night for an auction, but I cannot do this from work, as many of you can. This is where the advantage lies. I'm not suggestions anything to counter this, but it is a reality that shouldnt be overlooked.

I am confident that the majority of us know the difference between buying and selling players to improve the skill level of your team vs. buying and selling players to make fast money.

Does your boss know how much of his time you waste on the transfer list? lol

This Post:
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68476.31 in reply to 68476.24
Date: 1/19/2009 2:10:35 AM
Overall Posts Rated:
587587
Over the past few weeks, I have seen so many accounts with a few too many transfers where the buyer or seller disappeared in their transfer list and that are blatently daytrading. The problem is I am not allowed to post names here so wont do this. I will also not report them, because nothing will be done about it.

Please do report any suspicious activity you see (this obviously includes overpriced transfers). Every single report is investigated. Users who report what they see help us act quicker and keep the game clean and fair.

Now, I must stress that daytrading as such is not cheating. Not when it means finding a genuinely good deal and selling the player at fair market value. (Personally, I don't like it and don't see it as a valid strategy in a management game where the commodity is supposed to be people (players), but it's not against the rules.) However, every sale at an inflated price either requires a transfer price adjustment or is cheating. We value the reports we get from other users on these cases.

The more details you can provide on a single transfer the better. Whenever you can ease our job, you can be sure you also make the game much fairer for us all. So, please do report the cases using the cheating report tool and spend a minute to think what sort of details you're able to provide us.

This Post:
00
68476.32 in reply to 68476.28
Date: 1/19/2009 2:15:55 AM
Overall Posts Rated:
196196
All I can say is thank goodness you didn't join BB back in late 2007.

I would be amazed if day-trading still exists with 20,000 odd more users/slower training and the new resale % clauses.

Back in the day it was feasible to make millions (day-traders would've scoffed about tie-ing up their money for $80,000 in a trade and looked for a bigger potential margin elsewhere)

Thats not to say I still dont try (much less so nowadays) to find a bargain or 2 and skill trade them to turn them around in 2-3weeks. That I think should always be part of the game and I hope that doesnt get eradicated.

Buying a 2k player and hoping to get a bite at 120k is funny considering everyone can take a look at the transfer history but one thing that I havent seen mentioned in this threads is making sure to list your players at the right time. I would put 80% of the capital i made down to living in a timezone that when I signed on there was often less than 80-100 people online.

If you have free agents expiring when many people are asleep then these are the easiest pickings going... now as i say with more users and i imagine a higher average amount of users even at a quiet time this is no longer possible ;-(

I would like to see a much more dynamic market with season loans / exchanges and salary bidding and if necessary a trading profit cap fixed per season.

Let those of us that like to shuffle our roster do so and as far as i can see there is still scope for the most skilled of managers to do so without having an enormous advantage on those that cant.

This Post:
00
68476.33 in reply to 68476.31
Date: 1/19/2009 9:15:07 AM
Overall Posts Rated:
167167
i thin sosta and myself are not talking about the people that sell a player for 1 million that they bought for 500k. or for 3 million having a value off 1 million. these are easily spotted and easy to deal with.

I am sure you agree there are many players untrainable worthless or close to this. They dont warrant even a sale price off 100k but there are loads off examples out there. You want me to report these players? That is what I was trying to explain in my post. daytrading isnt illegal or cheating. I know this, but it will destroy the game. and like you said yourself and like sosta said and what is my opinion too. this is a management game and the best manager should be on top, not the people that have the time to spend hours and hours each day watching on TL to buy players for 1k or 10k or 50k and than make a 50k or so profit selling them instantly onwards. This is daytrading and I have seen several accounts off players making millions and millions this way. Like I said, this shouldnt be possible period. I simply dont have time either to report all these transactions myself. If I would have the time I would start daytrading myself.

Anyway, I have said enough. This issue isn´t taking serious like it was ignored for many seasons in hattrick and now they seriously clamp down on it and we are in season 37. Dont see this being resolved soon if at all...

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