BuzzerBeater Forums

But if they're reading and then updating the same table, unless they could ensure that nothing else touched that table during the time it would take to process the box scores, I don't think relocating the data to another server would help.

But for the game calculations, you are sure that, during the quarter before the start of the games, the datas needed by the process can't be updated by the user. The key here is not to copy all the datas in the tables, but only the relevant datas. For example, it's obvious that the game calculations need the table wich contains the players, and that a player can change of owner during the calculations. But:

1) the process doesn't need all the BB players.

2) the process needs to know the owner to start the calculation but doesn't need to update the owner at the end of the process.

I'm not sure we can really analyze that fully without knowing the relevant code. Just as a hypothetical, what if player's experience level is updated with each minute of play - and then the updated value of experience reflects in further calculations? I don't consider this to be a likely scenario, but if that's the case, there'll be some small discrepancies.

I think more than this, though, it just seems an odd design choice to have the box scores be calculated after the completion of the game rather than as part of the output of the simulation itself. There may need to be some final summation performed, but the stats themselves could be updated into appropriate objects/tables and then as the match concludes, any necessary summation can be performed independently. This could also lead to staging of the box scores - i.e., immediately after the game you have the stats of both teams and the tactics/enthusiasm choice. If ratings and PP100 require more calculation, those could be blank with the note that "the reporters are finishing up their match ratings" or some flavor text like that. But there's certainly no reason at all that the tactics/enthusiasm should not be immediately visible (heck, even in the viewer!), and there's not a particularly good reason that the players' statlines should not be visible as well.

Good. I see there is no point replying to the annoying, anonymous, unimportant user. Better ignore him.

I was a supporter for 3 years and a half.
Why ?

Of course because I like the game. I find the GE absolutely amazing in its complexity and a masterwork. Still a lot of flaws and it is a pity the original devs have stopped working on it, yet it is good enough and the best that I know of for a basketball online sim. It's too good and has probably gobbled up too many hours of intensive dedicated work to let it go to waste.

Also I like the dev's conception of an online game, the clear refusal to give paying users gameplay advantages, the priority given to content vs graphics, the care about putting up a game that allows several paths, several ways to enjoy it and provide every kind of gamer from hardcore to casual a playground for fun. I feel like-minded.

I have never given money to an online game that required to pay to play or to benefit from important features. Big NO.
I have sometimes given money for "free" to a handful of games that deserved it, with cautious and careful thinking, projects who really needed support and were the best of their kind. I do that with very much care and sparsely because my pockets are not bottomless :)

Like all the other former supporters, weeks ago, I have received a mail from Mark asking for my contribution again.
I could have considered it but I didn't. Why ?
I don't know where the game is going. Development has stalled, there is nothing new for years. Same bugs never fixed for years.
I happened to have sometimes made investments IRL in family or friends projects. Of course, everytime I was told the what's on and about, as nice as I am, I am not completely careless and idiot. This is the least one can do when asking for money.
I understand, here, it's a bit different. I don't want and don't need to know everything about your business.
But there is this annoying stuff with people like me who don't think of themselves as customers here but more as very very low grade partners. I don't have customers rant, I have partners rants.

I know I am not the only one.
If you are going to ask for help from new supporters then tell a bit of what you plan to do REALISTICALLY, your targets, your goals, your work plan.
There were calls for more communication from BB's part. They were answered with more apologies to delays and promises to put on this endless to-do list. Fine. But this is not communication, this is Public Relations.

As a reminder, see here why and when the boxscores messes started : (135277.1)
It's an unwanted consequence of a fix to have games start on time (because at one point games would frequently not start). Before that, boxscores always showed up on time despite the number of games.
BB-Forrest acknowledges it, doesn't seem too pleased by the situation and tries to correct it. (135277.6)
This was 30 months ago !
It was never fixed. Not only it was not fixed but it's a forgotten issue and despite what you claim Marin, I am sorry, it is not a priority at all and it appears very clearly that nothing is done to solve it.

There are questions about this bug that are never answered. Notably, because it is not the first time it is asked, if the number of games is a burden to the servers, why keep the ghost leagues ? They used to be useful as cup fillers but with the number of active teams going down, they are not necessary anymore. What are their purpose ? Is it too complicated to remove them ?

Simple answers to simple questions, to check if the game is alive and worth supporting.

Joe, I don't know, why are you replying ? Shall I take your reply as an official one ?
Do you reply because you think I was too harsh ?

Marketing ? It's BuzzerBeater, an independant site we are talking about with all the difficulties inherent to being an independant site and very short on ressources so marketing is a bit exaggerated as a term.

But let's play this game.
In terms of marketing, how is it to have the boxscores never showed up during all the evening in a large geographical area with 20k+ users, home of the 2 largest communities, Spain and Italy ? Two communities who have shrinked, Spain spectacularly from 6k to 3.5k.
And to claim for more than 2 years than they can't fix the bug.
In terms of marketing, how does it fare ? Towards new users, how does it fare ?
Because certainly, in terms of marketing, it is not quite good to see everlasting discussions about how the boxscores are late and to explain to newbies, yup, it's normal, it's not like for cup games.

I assure you and very leisurely, should those leagues be deleted, nobody here would care. Why would we ? A majority of the users wouldn't even realize it. Hush ;p
And this, for fear to send a bad sign ? What kind of bad sign, many of the old timers already think and say that the game is doomed. In terms of marketing, this is a disaster when users say that.
If you are in charge of BB's marketing, I enjoin you to reassess your priorities urgently ! ;p

I feel this boxscores stuff is hurting the game.

I use the forums a lot. I use my league forum a lot. I have changed leagues a lot and I have tried and humbly I think I have succeeded in revitalizing my league forum each time I have changed leagues.
It's essential to the game to link the users, encourage discussion, catch players interest. Fundamentally, BB is a social game meant to be played by people who have interactions. Everything was set up for that from the beginning, a chat and an infinity of forums. Or else, let's play Football Manager on our own, it's an awesome game.
Boxscores are the best start for a discussion, as soon as the games are finished, everyone can see the boxscores and comment in the heat of the game. It doesn't matter if you are connected H24 or a casual BBer, the time when the game ends is when the most people are simultaneously connected to glimpse at the result. If one or two out of 16 start to comment after every game, others in the league will join. And it becomes a meeting point because you know that at this particular moment of the week, there will be people chatting and new posts to read.
I have "relaunched" league forums, I have seen this happened, I think it is very simple to comprehend how it works.

So this, about boxscores is fundamental. BuzzerBeater is meant to be a "lively" game with the focus point being the live games. Not everyone can be connected during games but many can find five minutes during the hour after the game have ended to look at the results, drop a word, brag, banter or vent his frustration. It's essential. It's BuzzerBeater's main asset and it's completely underused at the moment. And this because even me, I think an experienced user who can quickly catch what happened in a game, I can't bother going through even one or two of my league live games... It's too much hassle.

It's useless Manouche, I brought that point several times before, and I never got an answer...

It seems like ghost leagues are our future, let's cherish them ! ;)

Last edited by Larry.Bird at 11/3/2012 6:22:21 PM

I really don't want it to look like it's personal against Marin, it's absolutely not and I have stated many times I respect his work a lot.

Marin, I am not upset with you :)

It's about that question in particular that is never answered and some questions in general that are not answered.
I didn't took personally that the question was not answered. To me, Marin is a BB representative whose one of the duties is to show up in the forums and take the flak, he is not responsible for everything, he is trying his best.

Now maybe we could let him answer if he wants to, if he is not forbidden to, or let him send me to hell if he feels like :)


I disagree completely with the rest Joe, first BB is not a simple product like the washing powder in your supermarket. It's a very different kind of product with a different economy model. See here, many are using it for free.
What you call commercial attitude I call Public Relations. The art of presenting facts by lessening the negative and heightening the positive, sometimes hiding the truth a little bit, in bad cases by outright lying. That it is sometimes called "commercial" is doublespeak and a PR stunt already.
A commercial attitude is being helpful, caring, attentive to your customers needs, efficient and willing to solve their problems and give them satisfaction.

Anyway it is wrong to think that to unravel what was done is a step back. If you make a mistake, you go back and correct it. I am not saying it is the case but what would be the problem ? Life is not always going forward, you constantly stop, go back, restart, it's normal.
It doesn't mean at all that BB can't work with a larger userbase, you shouldn't be obsessed with keeping up appearances.
A solution can be found later, again what would be the problem ?

I know it is not as easy as pie but is the alternative easy ? And what is the alternative by the way ?
I was just asking questions about it, questions that were already asked and not properly answered before.
Will you disagree if I say that too many have grown tired and bored of BB thinking that the game is dying a slow death ?
This is something to be concerned about.

Me, I don't believe BB is dying. And I believe BB still has a loyal fanbase, ready to roar. But loyals are tough and everyone's patience has a limit.