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So your saying 2 gay men rob 2 different banks, however, the 1st men doesn't let on that he is gay, yet the other publicly comes out that he was gay. Would man number 2, be treated differently, then the other gay man? I think they would be.


Again, I'm not trying to put anyone down, but anytime you let on that your different from the normal you will get treated differently. That is all I'm saying.

PPS, I don't think robbing a bank should be a crime, considering how bad they fleece us.

Lol no one knows what you are saying, but at least I agree to the PPS part

Color is not a choice. .. you sexual preference is.

So when did you choose to be straight? Have you ever asked a gay or lesbian person if they chose to be homosexual? I guarantee they will tell it wasn't a choice. I'm also sure some would tell you if they had the choice when they were young, they wouldn't have chosen to be homosexual to avoid the discrimination and condemnation they had to endure, many from their own parents.

Then we completely disagree on this matter and it is to be expected. You have tried to put a human face on this.
What does his declaration haveto do with Basketball?
Please answer me that question of you can?
Or wait. ... maybe I'm downplaying what Jackie Robinson did, that's it!
Some people become sexually aware at a very tender young age, and when that happens you get this statements that you brought out. ...."they knew the were different" as you stated.....yeah they did... things and impulses going on in their little bodies that it takes a grown person to understand. So some go with that impulse, and trust me others did not. ... that is called a choice.
Oh btw you have evaded the Jackie Robinson discussion you started. What was that again?
We are talking about basketball and its relevance to it. ... his statements will be forgotten, you blur the lines with your reasoning. .... don't.

We've ended up with two parallel discussions here, so I'll chime in on both.

1. I wasn't comparing Collins with Jackie Robinson. I pointed out that JR's white teammates didn't want to shower with him, and today I think you'll have to look pretty far to find someone who won't shower next to a person because of their skin color, even in the deep South.

Collins is not doing what JR did, not at all. He's just the one in his league's history who was brave enough to say it's time to stop asking whether or not someone like him is there. Clearly there have been gay players in all sports for all of history. He just put a name and face to one in our era. It's important, but not ground-breaking. They've been there all along. Important difference.

2. I always knew I was interested in women. Society also happened to encourage that way of thinking. No reason to give it a second thought. That's how it works when you are part of the dominant group.

My son first expressed his feelings for other boys at about age 8. He probably had them before then. We suspected at 3. He's 10 now, and still not comfortable enough with it to say it out loud in any group, because it's still not the norm. If I can do anything to make the world he grows up in easier for him, I will.

He didn't choose anything. I choose how I help him navigate a world growing more aware of his reality. People everywhere choose how they respond when they find out. Maybe someday soon we won't even have this discussion, because no one will think of treating him differently.

And one thing is for sure: He doesn't want to be different. He doesn't want any of his friends to stop playing with him. He doesn't want to be teased. He doesn't want to be ostracized. That's the kind of pain people don't self-inflict.

Cruelty is a choice. Making a child feel bad because of who he is, that's a choice. I hope you come to see that, for everyone's sake.

So some go with that impulse, and trust me others did not. ... that is called a choice.

If a man is attracted to men, but chooses to marry a woman, have kids etc, that doesn't mean he is straight now all of the sudden. He's still attracted to men and not women, he is still homosexual.

You said a person's sexual preference is a choice, now you are saying that whether or not a person acts on their sexual preference, or "impulse" is a choice. Those are two entirely different things.

Last edited by jfarb at 4/30/2013 2:52:34 PM

So you expect gay people to deny their feelings and impulses, whereas "straight" people are allowed to? What rational basis do you have to judge that one is acceptable, and one isn't? Why should acting on those impulses be ok if the other person is the opposite sex, but not when the other person is the same sex?

I think it's absurd to expect there to be the ability to separate those two, the impulses, and acting on them (with a consenting partner of course). And that goes doubly for expecting that of one group (gay people), when you don't expect it of another (straight people).

As far as Collins goes, the simple fact that we're having this discussion here shows that what he did is still necessary, and courageous. And it's relevant to sports because there are two aspects of sports that makes them compelling: 1) the sheer technical aspect: of performing, of coaching, of strategizing. And then there's the human element to watch, how it reflects society, and also leads society. Part of that is watching people overachieve, going beyond their limits. In that general realm, sports provides a backdrop for wider discussions going on in the society.

I have no idea what you're talking about in terms of Jackie Robinson. I didn't bring him up. Personally, he's one of the great American heroes. But talking about these things now doesn't in any way change or diminish what Robinson went through.

I to have a 15 year old that deals with this issue. ... no one wants to be different, no one. Homophobia is wrong, there are different ways to deal with this issue. I choose to abide by the highest source of information about the matter...... but no one wishes to listen to what thoes words haveto say, and they are ignored for. ..feelings.
The heart is not the brain, and upon these commands I teach my child. It is not popular. . It is not mainstream. ... you may ask who does it really harm?
With all the words of men that change opinions like I put on pants, it falls woefully short of the higher authority.

I have almost no clue what any of this means. I think thats a reference to the Bible, and then something about allowing your brain to command you as opposed to your heart, which isn't very Bible-like, and then another reference to religion maybe? I'm not really sure.

I have almost no clue what any of this means. I think thats a reference to the Bible, and then something about allowing your brain to command you as opposed to your heart, which isn't very Bible-like, and then another reference to religion maybe? I'm not really sure.

Do you want me to come out. ....?
A few of you here are ready to vilify me by a simple affirmation of your statement of clarification. Would you show the same intolerance as a few fight for. .. for tolerance to the comments of a scrub. .. that's tall?

You need to make sure your comments are coherent and readable, because right now you are all over the place and no one is going to know what you mean.

I know I sure don't. It's like a cross between Chris Broussard and the Deep Space Nine episode where everyone stops being able to put together coherent sentences.

Agreed. Aced the spelling test, was absent for the comprehension test.