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Your offensive flow was inferior to their OD (only 13 assists), and together with the fast pace this caused your guards to take bad shots early on the clock - a text book example for when not to use fast non-inside tactics, sorry to say.

Against a good OD, the only thing worse than a contested outside shot is an uncontested one.

What means "repositioned" shooter?

What means "repositioned" shooter?

For example, you put your SG (best shooter of the team) on Center position and play patient.

Gonna put in some logic

1 LI (only consider other tactic if you are training or built weird, even predicted this is often the best)

2 LP (to avoid prediction or focus on foul outs for a shallow opponent), inside isolation sometimes works same (avoid prediction)

3 PtB (to avoid prediction)

4 BO (to avoid prediction)

5 Patient (to exploit training potentially or other holes in a team/utilize specific offensive player)

6 Princeton and isolations (when someone is training/weak competition because of OD hole- plus prediction possibility)

7 R&G is for points playing teams that don't understand and haven't stacked OD to the gills, otherwise it's a useless tactic

8 Motion is basically useless if they have OD I think


I wonder if we went over last couple seasons of b3 how the different lists of tactics would fare up versus win % when said tactics were used.... but the sample size on some tactics (other than LI really) may be too small to represent any statistical accuracy. DI finals and cup finals in nations of 300plus users as well as the knockout round of b3 only might be a large enough pool to get most of the tactics relative win %s. If we exclude all the same tactics versus same tactic (LI versus LI) that should prove most telling of all- how often does LI lose to other tactics at the top level, predicted or not and how do the other tactics do under the same evaluation.

how often does LI lose to other tactics at the top level, predicted or not and how do the other tactics do under the same evaluation.

i'll just add one thing on this part
LI does not lose to another offensive tactic as it goes up against defensive tactics.

if a team A plays LI and m2m and the opponent (team plays OI and 2-3 , team A lost, but the offensive tactic lost to the 2-3 zone.

i know it seems like i am nitpicking your statement but the conclusion should be read differently.

the best offensive tactics are not better as one is more resource demanding than another, but defensive tactics are the true indicator of what offenses work the best.
unfortunately, good OD offsets almost completly outside tactics. if you have od 10on big men you could care less what the other team is playing (RnG Motion Patient or whatever)
wheas inside tactics require not only id but also SB, also some OD on the opposing passer and it is harder to stop.


i think a solution to this would be either to nerf OD to loosen up outside tactics effectiveness, or bump up SB/ID to offset inside offenses

Unfortunately basketball is a two way game where the team that scores the most wins.

Therefore whoevers offense did the best, surely defense a factor, wins.

For example if a team is very bad at offense, it doesn't matter if the other team is good or great at defense, the team still isn't going to score very well.

Defense is important but you can't win with defense because there are no points scored on defense.

This is why basketball is an offensive game and offensive players that can guarantee points are the most valuable. It's logical.

If you hold the opponent to 1 bucket but you can't score one yourself, you still lose. Defense just can't win. Only scoring buckets wins.

Now that said, if you want to include defense in the picture, fine. I am happy with simply comparing the offenses strategies alone regardless of defense or even prediction. This will work great for LI since there is nothing that really stops it. You just need a stronger opposing LI or some massive help from prediction most of the time (and or just a much better team). There have been some games that make it look otherwise here and there lately.

IF you want to put in all the offenses versus all the defenses and come up with pace-adjusted scoring efficiency you are gonna need a lot more data and a lot more complex analysis.

so by *your* understanding of *my* reasoning, if an opponent has OD 6 and ID 12, you would still attack inside because LI is the bast and that is your best skillset.


as for can't win w defence. maybe ask your self if you understand game mechanics when a lucky fan comes into the game and scores agains od 17.

as for comparing offenses just among themselves, all i can say is like if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, DEFENSE will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.

Unfortunately basketball is a two way game where the team that scores the most wins.

Therefore whoevers offense did the best, surely defense a factor, wins.

dont want to get into a further argument as i already switched priority to low on this thread.

a perfect analogy to what you said, but in real life, to be clear, is the following.

unfortunately basketball is a game that prioritizes playing tall guys.
therfore whoever is bigger wins. surely leaping ability matter as you can be tall and weigh 150kg and not jump more than a french fry, but height is still the trump card.

i am in the wrong for engaging in a subjective and relative argument. this is not even philosophy.
i agree w the rankings of the offenses based on the most frequent skillsets available and what defenses are being played today. some miught come to the same conclusion based on different arguments. it really does not matter. niether to you or me why others think you the other is wrong, short sighted or narrow minded, even more so when we agree.

NObody would play 6OD 12 ID at a high level. THe training and asalary doesn't make sense.

Bang for your buck is more OD every single time, regardless of position. At least 10 OD even for Cs at the top level most of the time.

That's what you face because of training and salary formula imbalance GE deficits aside.

So if you can play opponents that don't train OD, go for the other tactics.

I guess here your point about Defense matters is being proven by my words. But less in terms of tactic than raw player builds.

Here's what I think.

LI and LP statistically have a very similar shot selection and it's understandable considering that players are built the same way for both. At top level LI usually does better offensively for a couple of reasons: LP needs more PA to generate the same amount of inside shots and LP also generates fewer fouls. Going to the line in this game is worth a lot more than in the real world because TS% on other shots is generally lower than in the NBA, but TS% on FTs is actually in line. I don't know if anyone tried but it's possible that LP is better than LI if the big men have no DR/HA, decent to good PA and the guards have enough PA themselves to feed them on enough possessions: big men with no DR take more dunks, which may increase the overall shot efficiency.

Patient and PTB are next. These are tactics that exploit mismatches. They work if the opponent can be dominated or beaten at some positions. I would think PTB is generally better because with Patient you put all your eggs in one basket and if you play the shooter at PF or C you will miss out on a lot of stops. The problem with these tactics is that at top level they end up being frustrated by the fact that the opponent has no real weak link, so you need to offset the shooter in Patient and hope you can get enough rebounds. These tactics have a worse TS% of even outside tactics, but, crucially, as they seem to do better on the boards they may be a better choice than outside tactics. How close they are to inside tactics, depends on the mismatches.

Motion/R&G/Princeton. Again shot selection is quite similar, R&G gets more fouls and Princeton fewer (like LI vs LP). All of these tactics rely on Jump Shots and in terms of efficiency Princeton>Motion>R&G IF you can get an open shot (unlike inside shots, where PA affects the proportion of inside shots but not the FG% by any significant margin, here it actually affects more the FG% than the shot distribution). Fouling rates are worse for all of these tactics, R&G being slightly better. The key here is again possessions and R&G and Motion have a worse rebounding rate than Princeton. So Princeton with appropriate personnel should be better in theory, because getting open shots here matters more than for inside tactics.

BO is actually hard to judge because it is a tactic most people use when they have a sizeable advantage in talent and want to avoid getting GDPd. BO may well work as well as other neutral tactics, although it generally yields worse team ratings.

Isolations are the worst and I doubt people have really understood how they work and how to make good use of them. They both get over 50% jump shots and 3s at a penalty, so I am almost sure they are worse than anything else.

Based on the above I'd divide this way:
Tier1
LI
LP
Tier2
Patient (offset)
PTB
BO?
Tier3
Princeton
Motion/R&G
Patient (not offset)
Tier4
ISOs

Last edited by Lemonshine at 5/10/2019 6:24:50 AM