BuzzerBeater Forums

Just how slowly are they coming along?

In order to deflect some attention from the egg on my face…I present our end of season all-stars

At Point Guard:
1st team - A. Prado del Rey – Grim Koalas – 17.2 / 3.1 / 3.3 – 40.7% / 32.5% / 67.9%
2nd team - A. Végh – Walker Wiggles – 16.6 / 2.8 / 3.1 – 41.5% / 28.7% / 79.2%
3rd team - J. Fèvre – Knicktardededededer – 16.3 / 4.0 / 3.7 – 39.8% / 27.4% / 76.3%

At Shooting Guard:
1st team – M. Amorrortu – New York Jests – 23.2 / 5.5 / 4.3 – 39.7% / 28.5% / 74.7%
2nd team – W. Lundy – Knicktardeder – 23.7 / 3.9 / 4.3 – 44.0% / 36.8% / 62.0%
3rd team – J. Carmichael – I’ll Replace you With Jelly Beans – 18.4 / 5.0 / 3.0 – 39.9% / 31.5% / 76.7%

At Small Forward:
1st team – B. Waller – Grim Koalas – 18.5 / 6.8 / 3.5 – 38.8% / 28.7% / 75.0%
2nd team – M. Tapia – Slashing Dragons – 17.2 / 4.1 / 3.6 – 43.9% / 12.5% / 68.9%
3rd team – R. Leach – Phoenix Blue Suns – 17.6 / 3.7 / 2.3 – 43.8% / 37.0% / 52.1%

At Power Forward:
1st team – L. Andersson – Finger Rolls – 19.2 / 10.7 / 0.7 – 47.1% / 40.4% / 77.8%
2nd team – R. Timmons – I’ll Replace you with Machines – 18.3 / 10.2 / 1.4 – 59.4% / 34.3% / 83.6%
3rd team - P. Gascón – Spocker – 18.0 / 13.3 / 0.0 – 44.1% / 26.1% / 68.9%

At Center:
1st team – D. Fuentes – Rashmonsters – 18.1 / 14.2 / 1.6 – 44.5% / 20.0% / 87.2%
2nd team – M. Turovas – 10inch Vertical – 18.1 / 11.1 / 0.5 – 60.9% / 0.0% / 67.4%
3rd team - M. Carnemolla – Pennsylvania Quakers – 17.5 / 12.1 / 1.2 – 53.2% / 41.2% / 56.6%

The jump shooting, run-n-gun bias comes through in the list. All 3 "pgs" on the list have fewer assists then my starting PF. If scoring is the main criteria.... Was any thought put into the position the players actually played this season? Nobody from DC or TF? Arguably the 2 best teams (when looking at the season as a whole) have zero people on your list? Cots even dropped 17 points, 6 rebounds and 15 assists against your rented mercenaries and he doesn't get some recency effect out of that to go with his great season?

vegh assist: TO - 1.5:1
Fevre (a SG) ration 3:1
del Ray 2:1

Cots 4:1
Youzhi 6:1
Cody 4:1
yes, Cody plays SG.

If I see someone playing PG and doesn't lead his team in assists, then I don't see a PG, just someone paying the position. In that regard, I don't actually see any PGs on your entire posted team.

Assists and turnovers matter and it appears they weren't even considered.

None of my players should be on the team after playing my "Go for the most lottery balls" scheme perfectly.

And I agree about assists needing to be considered moreso in the picks since those lead directly to points scored by the team. Cots and Youzhi are 2 of the more underappreciated players in this league, just because they play on inside focused squads.

Well, it's a tough call.

I agree assists are more important than most give cred for. And for some damned reason, Motion leads to fewer assists than some of the other offensive options. I suppose the question is efficiency.

In a 'outside' type of offense, such as I play.. the guards are going to shoot more than pass of course. On the 'inside' based offenses.. guess what, the guards will probably (and at times not which is strange) shoot less and pass more, leading to more assists and less points. So comes into play.. voila, efficiency. If Prado del Rey shot a better percentage, I'd be more likely to agree that he's worthy of being a top 3 PG. I am not sure he is, but then again, we all know I could care less about studying other teams.. at this time anyways.

As for which teams they come from, it's the typical argument you hear in professional basketball. Do players who put up nice numbers for a crappy team deserve the credit, as in All Star status or MVP. Could they do it on a winning team. Answer is, probably not since the better teams tend to have more than 1 or 2 options.. are more well rounded and spread the wealth (cue sports cliche bs). So as a team, with more options, the numbers are spread and look less impressive, yet if I had one of those inside guys from TF, he'd probably average a ton more than he does for TF.

Sorry for wall of text, glad you woke up.

On the 'inside' based offenses.. guess what, the guards will probably (and at times not which is strange) shoot less and pass more, leading to more assists and less points.

First, these are based on actual positions played during the regular season only.
Second, I invite you all to make your own lists or criticize at will.
Third, I didn't bother to adjust based on offense played or possessions per game if you want to get super technical.
Fourth, there is no easy way to accurately measure defense which would be a huge consideration to any position.

Last edited by Rambo at 4/13/2011 1:37:55 PM

And to add a bit, assists also come down to team mates of course.

Just taking a cursory look, TF as a team shot 45% from the field for the season. My team shot 35%. Now comes the big if, but if my team shot 45% from the field, could we tack an extra few assists or so for my guy? Of course we don't know, but it plays a part.

Plus, lets take the last guy I played and TF played. His PG shot 13 times. Mine shot 23. 10 less ops to get assists because of offense chosen. Plus TF got off 10 more shots in the game.

Guess I'm just saying, you can't go by pure assists per game #'s. There are some other factors to be considered.

Again, I'm not arguing for my guy, I'm just throwing some counterpoints.. whether valid or not. I'm not getting all happy because I had a top 3 PG and SF.. who played PF as much as any position :P

First, these are based on actual positions played during the regular season only.
Second, I invite you all to make your own lists or criticize at will.
Third, I didn't bother to adjust based on offense played or possessions per game if you want to get super technical.
Fourth, there is no easy way to accurately measure defense which would be a huge consideration to any position.

Oh, I appreciate the effort man. But some managers seem butt hurt over not having proper recognition for their players.. and I'm just throwing out ideas. In the end, only you know the criteria. And look, you started a few people posting, including me. So it must be a good subject.

Always have been awake, just quiet :)

I do appreciate the efforts in making these teams though, and I do think it shows an insight into different views of what makes a good player. Having played both inside and outside orients this season...I have a new appreciation for the need of passing on players and the advantages that having good passing makes to the team, so I lean more towards the assisting side than I would have in the past.

As for teams they come from, I still think its impressive a player like Kevin Love goes out and puts up 30/30 games. Would he do that if he had an Andrew Bynum playing next to him, probably not. So you really have to counterbalance numbers that are impressive by who else they play with. Really is a subjective matter, so I can't be critical of people who name teams based on their personal criteria.

None of this is a knock on your team but:

Cots, PGs & Assists:

I guess it kind of depends on what you value the assist as. I would characterize it as 1/3 of the effort (finding the open man vs. getting open and scoring). So you had 2.7 more assists than Fevre but 2.8 less points. Our average point per FGM this season was 2.135 (and yours was 2.058)

2.7*2.058/3 = 1.85 pts added. You'd have to conclude that an assist is worth half of a basket to make the differences equal which isn't unreasonable but then you also had higher turnovers.

Also, regarding this:

If I see someone playing PG and doesn't lead his team in assists, then I don't see a PG, just someone paying the position. In that regard, I don't actually see any PGs on your entire posted team.

It just conjures up images of LeBron James. Who's the real PG on his team, is it him, is it someone else? I sure don't know.

In the top 5 leagues in the USA only one person averages more than 6.1 assists (which is a pretty meager number in the NBA). The fact is, assists either aren't highly factored into the Game Engine or aren't stressed in training enough, but either way, they simply do not really exist as you (or I) would like.

That said I probably should have considered Youzhi as I did earlier in the season.