BuzzerBeater Forums

Here is an interesting scenario:

What player would you rather train?

A 5k 21year-old with all-time great potential
or
A 5k 18year-old with star potential?

Star potental is a complete waste of time to train. A 21 year HOF who is 5K has obviously been wasted...and there might be better prospects out there, but there is still hope for that player. Plus, if you train that guy up a bunch, there are suckers who wet their pants when they see Hall of Fame, and will overpay you for him later.

If you're starting in V, training a star potential guy is hardly a waste. Star potential players can definitely be the backbone of a team that promotes out of V and are still good enough to get out of IV and can be serviceable in III.

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If you're starting in V, training a star potential guy is hardly a waste. Star potential players can definitely be the backbone of a team that promotes out of V and are still good enough to get out of IV and can be serviceable in III.

I really don't even know what this means....Any quality player is going to be the backbone of a team that helps them promotes...and if anything, for DV & DIV teams, its usually older veteran players that are picked up cheap that help them promote...Star players cap early anyway, so as they are being trained, their ratings are so low, they are hardly "the backbone" of a team.

Any team that has a mindset towards promoting through the ranks should have trainees that they can continue to build and grow with their team. Low Potential players do not qualify.

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If you're starting in V, training a star potential guy is hardly a waste. Star potential players can definitely be the backbone of a team that promotes out of V and are still good enough to get out of IV and can be serviceable in III.

I really don't even know what this means....Any quality player is going to be the backbone of a team that helps them promotes...and if anything, for DV & DIV teams, its usually older veteran players that are picked up cheap that help them promote...Star players cap early anyway, so as they are being trained, their ratings are so low, they are hardly "the backbone" of a team.

Any team that has a mindset towards promoting through the ranks should have trainees that they can continue to build and grow with their team. Low Potential players do not qualify.

If you have the constraint that your initial trainees are the only guys you're ever allowed to train, sure, you have to start off with big potential guys and then hope you promote high enough fast enough so that they don't get too expensive to maintain. But the initial trainees aren't the last set of guys you ever train.

I suppose the backbone was the wrong word to use. I meant more of the "constant" -- the non-trainee positions are generally upgraded through the transfer list as team needs change, while the trainees are upgraded through their efforts in training. So just to use my team as an example, I had some veteran bigs that were good enough to start and succeed in V. As I moved to IV, the backup bigs got moved out, and then as I added a few more vets the old starters became backups and eventually replaced. Same with III - the guys who started and got me out are now backups or gone, and I've patched in a new set of bigs.

Now, of course, my guards are approaching their cap, but I'm already training my new set of big men trainees - and since I'm starting from III and aiming higher, *now* is the time where I have to have greater potential. Eventually, I suppose, I'll have to replace my guards with higher quality ones and use these guys as backups and maybe even someday sell them, but that's the price of progress.

Sometimes the biggest part of getting to where you want to go is making sure you can progress through the intermediate steps effectively. Training three guys who are good enough to play in the NBBA does no good if it happens while you're in a lower level and can't afford them (or to surround them with complimentary players to help move up).

There's always the option to sell them or train their secondaries first before they have become too big a fish in a small pond. Star potential is too low for bigs and perhaps barely acceptable for guards IMO.

There's always the option to sell them or train their secondaries first before they have become too big a fish in a small pond. Star potential is too low for bigs and perhaps barely acceptable for guards IMO.

If you're going to sell the guys when they cap, does it matter if that cap is star or superstar, in the grand scheme of things? The lower potential just means that you're starting your next training that much earlier, at which point you get trainees at a potential level based on where you want to be in some four or five seasons from then. I find it ridiculous to suggest that a team starting out in V needs to be training guys that would be its go-to players if they ever make it up to I in some 10-15 seasons time, especially given the stark reality of how few teams progress to that level.

As far as star potential being too low, again it depends on what level you're talking about. But it's certainly high enough to get a team from V to III, at least in the USA, and to maintain a spot in III while starting the next set of training -- and any argument against that is simply refuted by: "If you were right, I would be demoting." No argument that something can't be done can hold up against an example where it has been done.

No one is suggesting getting a HOF or MVP. I am just saying something higher than star, like pot 6 or 7 for bigs. Especially when you train someone, most should not look to train him just as a backup in a few seasons. Star is really a bit modest even for div 3 nowadays. Look at your team. Who are your top players? You also need someone higher than star potential.

There's always the option to sell them or train their secondaries first before they have become too big a fish in a small pond. Star potential is too low for bigs and perhaps barely acceptable for guards IMO.

If you're going to sell the guys when they cap, does it matter if that cap is star or superstar, in the grand scheme of things? The lower potential just means that you're starting your next training that much earlier, at which point you get trainees at a potential level based on where you want to be in some four or five seasons from then. I find it ridiculous to suggest that a team starting out in V needs to be training guys that would be its go-to players if they ever make it up to I in some 10-15 seasons time, especially given the stark reality of how few teams progress to that level.

As far as star potential being too low, again it depends on what level you're talking about. But it's certainly high enough to get a team from V to III, at least in the USA, and to maintain a spot in III while starting the next set of training -- and any argument against that is simply refuted by: "If you were right, I would be demoting." No argument that something can't be done can hold up against an example where it has been done.

The point is, and this is where i fear you are confusing new owners in this game...is that Star potential caps very quick....and often when you are new, you find a player or two you get excited about, envision that player being with your team forever, and that you will train him up, and he will help promote over and over and over....but then, after a couple of a seasons, boom, he's capped. That's dissapointing. Again, if you have a short term plan for a guy, fine, then that's your plan. but the notion that Star potential players are great players to train as the foundation of your team? Seriously? That just doesn't make a lot of sense.

If you plan to build a team, and grow your team, and advance through the ranks, one of the best ways to do that is to have trainees that have higher potential that you can continue to train, but at the same time rely on contributors to your victories. Its a great thing to being playing a guy who has a salary of 26K, however, his new training pops has his projected salary much higher. That's great value under the "play now, pay later" program.

One of the biggest gripes you hear about teams in higher divisions is that its too difficult to train players, and win. Who can take an 18 year old 5K player and stick him in the starting lineup with his 50K to 100K players and not have it affect the team? So training Star, to see him cap shortly, and then start over again, becomes more unrreleastic the higher you go ion the game. Now, if you are planning to stay in DIII, then I guess you can try to make that work.

Newer Owners: Just make sure you have a plan. The best thing to do is to go the Mentors thread in these helps forums, and find someone who will work with you one on one with your team. Training is a huge part of BuzzerBeater and can be the difference between quickly rising through the ranks, and being stuck in mediocrity. Training players, and managing of minutes that is required is crucial, so make sure you understand that fully as you set your long term goals/plans in BuzzerBeater.

I think you ought to go back and reread exactly what hrudey is talking about when discussing training star potential players, and reconsider if you think that he's saying they're great players to be the foundation of your team for your entire BB career. We're talking about what a good direction a new team might want to take.

I think there are three points that are important to consider in this discussion, that I haven't seen brought up thus far. First is the initial cost of the trainee. Sure, when you're a team with a 16400 seat arena, and you have multiple players who could be put on the TL and turned into cash, it's not unreasonable to expect that you can buy high potential trainees. But when you're a team that is just starting out in D5, the prospect of shelling out 500K for a single high quality, high potential trainee is ludicrous. You're already balancing the need to upgrade your 5000 seat arena with the need to buy veterans who aren't dropping their skills every week, and now you say the only smart move is to buy MVP+ potential for trainees? Seems unrealistic to me. Though maybe one can get "lucky" with their player transfers and accumulate sufficient money to do so. *snickers*

Really, if I were starting a team now, with what I know, I'd buy 19 year old allstar and p allstar players who have excellent starting skill distributions. These kind of guys can be had for 10K and less at the start of a new season. Trained single position for 3 seasons, as you spend 1-2 in D5 and then in D4, and you'll have some quality starters/role players/backups for your team (accruing similar 'play now, pay later' value). As they cap out, sell some and turn that into better quality trainees. Or mix two guys like that with one 18 year old higher potential guy (superstar is a good place to start).

That part of selling trainees when you're done with them is the second issue I think is important for new teams to really understand. Once you get a trainee to a level of "good" skills and decent salary (say ~40K), adding more training and more salary doesn't increase your return when you sell the player on the TL (barring very unique builds and good SFs). This diminishing return on marginal skill increases is coupled with the added total salary you'll spend to train that higher potential guy past what a capped p-allstar would earn. Now, if you can be sure you'll promote at a rate sufficient to cover that higher potential guy's salary, then great. But if you don't promote, and you end up being forced to sell that 100K salary MVP trainee, you won't be getting that much more in terms of transfer price.

Lastly, let's remember that there's a learning curve to training and creating useful builds in BB. A new trainer is going to go through the usual mistakes and errors that we all go through. Better that they makes these mistakes on cheaply acquired trainees rather than high priced talent. Out of my own ~5 initial guys I started giving training to, I consider myself lucky to still have two of those trainees who should be useful to different extents on my team for some time to come. The rest I made errors in evaluating their skill distribution at the time of purchase, or in the expected training rates. And even despite those errors, I was able to sell them at a profit, given their low initial cost.

The point is, and this is where i fear you are confusing new owners in this game...is that Star potential caps very quick....and often when you are new, you find a player or two you get excited about, envision that player being with your team forever, and that you will train him up, and he will help promote over and over and over....but then, after a couple of a seasons, boom, he's capped. That's dissapointing. Again, if you have a short term plan for a guy, fine, then that's your plan. but the notion that Star potential players are great players to train as the foundation of your team? Seriously? That just doesn't make a lot of sense.
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One of the biggest gripes you hear about teams in higher divisions is that its too difficult to train players, and win. Who can take an 18 year old 5K player and stick him in the starting lineup with his 50K to 100K players and not have it affect the team? So training Star, to see him cap shortly, and then start over again, becomes more unrreleastic the higher you go ion the game. Now, if you are planning to stay in DIII, then I guess you can try to make that work.

If you're thinking that I'm saying you train stars, cap them and train more star potential players, your contention makes more sense, as that would be a stupid plan. Let's say it takes 3 seasons to train a guard with star potential to his cap (though you can stretch it out with two position training, to give you more depth in exchange for slower increases). At that point, a team should have moved up from V to IV and probably have some moderate success in IV. At that point, you can switch to training big men with higher potential, while your capped guards are more than good enough to serve you in IV and even in III.

It may not be the "ideal" or recommended way of developing a team, but the throwaway line that "star potential is worthless" is patently and demonstrably false. You end your post with an appeal to new players to have a plan - which is absolutely essential! - but don't take into consideration that not all plans have to produce the same cookie-cutter players in the same order.

I think you ought to go back and reread exactly what hrudey is talking about when discussing training star potential players

I have read exactly what he said...and he's insistent on digging his feet in regarding the benefit, value, and intelligence regarding training Star potential players....Not many high level managers in this country that would reccomend such a strategy.

I think there are three points that are important to consider in this discussion, that I haven't seen brought up thus far. First is the initial cost of the trainee. Sure, when you're a team with a 16400 seat arena,

This isn't about me and what I am capable of doing. This is about not giving blanket statements that doing something is a good idea, so that a new owner reads and buys into it. Again, there are instances that training a Star potential, or any potential player can be of benefit...but each owner should make sure of that ahead of time.

and now you say the only smart move is to buy MVP+ potential for trainees? Seems unrealistic to me. Though maybe one can get "lucky" with their player transfers and accumulate sufficient money to do so. *snickers*

Perhaps you should go back and reread what I said...I was merely showing my popgression in my thinking concerning trainees...I never said, or implied that brand new owners should set the same standard I have for my team right now, and only train MVP or better.

Really, if I were starting a team now, with what I know, I'd buy 19 year old allstar and p allstar players who have excellent starting skill distributions. These kind of guys can be had for 10K and less at the start of a new season. Trained single position for 3 seasons, as you spend 1-2 in D5 and then in D4, and you'll have some quality starters/role players/backups for your team (accruing similar 'play now, pay later' value). As they cap out, sell some and turn that into better quality trainees. Or mix two guys like that with one 18 year old higher potential guy (superstar is a good place to start).

I agree with this, and think this is a great strategy for newer owners. Allstar is the bare minimum, but even with Allstar you can develop quality players that can last with your teaam for a while, and can stay with your team if you want as a quality backup as one promotes through the ranks, or as you said, will provide significant value.

Lastly, let's remember that there's a learning curve to training and creating useful builds in BB. A new trainer is going to go through the usual mistakes and errors that we all go through. .

Very true, this is why i suggested getting teamed up with a mentor. I was fortunate enough to enough have some of the best players in the game mentor me early in my career....and has greatly contributed to my success.

This isn't about me and what I am capable of doing. This is about not giving blanket statements that doing something is a good idea, so that a new owner reads and buys into it. Again, there are instances that training a Star potential, or any potential player can be of benefit...but each owner should make sure of that ahead of time.

Which part of :

Star potental is a complete waste of time to train.

isn't a blanket statement?