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Also thats coming from GM-Kozlodev ''Home-court advantage and enthusiasm are already reflected in team ratings.'' So if the game was on a neutral side Nigerian team would have lower ratings

the effect is higher then the effect on ratings, that something i could say for sure ;)

Even when i am not the biggest fan of the ratings.

What i am arguing man is that to built an inside attack is really hard (nobody arguing about that i think) and it doesnt gives you any advantage of it. Why then to try to take the hard route when they are easier ways to get the same result?

Also thats coming from GM-Kozlodev ''Home-court advantage and enthusiasm are already reflected in team ratings.'' So if the game was on a neutral side Nigerian team would have lower ratings

Then you should NOT provide arguments (like this game) that most people will show you are not god for your point. Because, people will think that since your arguments and examples ar wrong, then your premise is also wrong.

You have NOT provide any really good example to make people think that actually building "inside focused teams" is harder than "outside focuses team" and has no adventage. I still believe that most "inside managers" were having a training pattern/model wich was not good for most of the changes in BB. And now, I'm not only talking abput the GE. Also about budget managment.

The way most people have trained inside players was extremelly expensive salary-wise, that being said, many "outside trainers" had created imbalanced players with tons of JS who can't deliver a well-rounded performance in outside tactics, being one example of another bad model for training, this time, in outsided players.

I really think that unless time happens and different strategies for inside development start to arise and fail, you really will not have any strong claim about the GE.

Maybe mu first "advice" (or idea, I don't want to look like I have the answers because I don't) would be to STOP thinking about inside teams and outside teams and start thinking about basketball teams which managers try to give specific and limited strategic adventages (wich usually comes with a disadventage/opportunity cost) in order to defeat other basketball teams with other sort of strenghts and weaknesses.

well he did provide arguments... he said that support 4 good inside players and good guards to provide offensive flow for those inside players is way more expensive than having an outside team. he said that training secondaries for big men are more complicated than training guards, because inside player training does not train secondary skills like for example pressure trains OD and a little ID, but ID training does not train OD. so inside team has more trouble to be competitive and it does not have rewards. i think that is what he is trying to prove.

from my point of view... i also train big men. i do win games in my league, but i also see that training guards would be easier. you just need to train jumpshot as a wingmen to get additional pops in inside shot, for ID i allready mentioned it earlier. and... try to train big men in passing and handling (which imho are important skills, because higher handling/passing big players do less turnovers). not only you will have height penalty but also you'll sacrifice possibly easy wins, because you will have to put your clumsy big mens at pg positions :). there's a lot of other reasons (like the offensive flow), and i am changing my trainees from next season to guards... i agree with johnnyb on this.

Last edited by Rycka at 1/21/2010 12:42:54 PM

well he did provide arguments... he said that support 4 good inside players and good guards to provide offensive flow for those inside players is way more expensive than having an outside team.

I believe I said that those kind of teams are, likely, going to loose many games. Just like those teams with 4 four expensive good outside players (of 150k each, just like 4 good inside players) with big mens having good rebounds.

Then, was it a really efective argument in the discussion of "inside vs outside"??

he said that training secondaries for big men are more complicated than training guards, because inside player training does not train secondary skills like for example pressure trains OD and a little ID, but ID training does not train OD. so inside team has more trouble to be competitive and it does not have rewards. i think that is what he is trying to prove.

I believe this is not true at all. You can train driving and JS in a very easy way for your C by making them play as PF. Just like an outside player can but his PG as SG to train JR in 1 position. Plus, it is really easy to train RB to inside man, while is not to train it for PG and SG.

Training IS to a SG it is a pain. Because you really have to wait a lot of time to get a secondary pop by training it with shoting for SF and PF.

And I can continue to do this with more examples. My point is, trainig secondaries is difficult for everyone. It is hard to train inside skills for outside players and it is hard to train outside skills for inside players. And it should be that way.

from my point of view... i also train big men. i do win games in my league, but i also see that training guards would be easier. you just need to train jumpshot as a wingmen to get additional pops in inside shot, for ID i allready mentioned it earlier. and... try to train big men in passing and handling (which imho are important skills, because higher handling/passing big players do less turnovers). not only you will have height penalty but also you'll sacrifice possibly easy wins, because you will have to put your clumsy big mens at pg positions :). there's a lot of other reasons (like the offensive flow), and i am changing my trainees from next season to guards... i agree with johnnyb on this.

You should do as you please. And probably switching over time between training outside players and inside ones is for sure very good developing strategy, so you can stop having in your mind the "Inside Team vs Outside Team" and start having the "Basketball Team" instead of it.

I don't understand...So how exactly those so called balanced players gona help in inside game and basicly we should make a SF team.
What about mighty avengers two nt level centers and nt level pg still can't win a game...so what players you must have to win in inside game???Two Cardenas and a 200k salary pg??? The balanced players debate is crap imo,although i agree on balanced sf's,but other positions is a waste of time execpt passing on centers...Lets see on real life examples: Shaq is one of greatest centers of all time who still throws bricks outside of the painted area,same with Howard.But most of the centers were good passers,shaq avg.~3 assists,chamberlain even lead the league in assists.
Also pg is not most important man in inside game,but it seems it is in here after reading all those posts....
Parker doesn't need to give ball to Duncan when he's in perfect position to score since Duncan needs to get the ball near paint and does all the work in there...Same with shaq
All in all i don't think it's even worth discussing since it all comes down to "balanced" players or flow etc.
and yeah i always thought there was PG,SG,SF,PF,C for a reason to do his work on court,not SG doing C work or other way around etc.
But that is my philosophy or i just dont understand basketball at all now.

What about mighty avengers two nt level centers and nt level pg still can't win a game...so what players you must have to win in inside game??

What would you say if Dembe loss, 4 NT player and one pretty more NT like Shooting guard can win games. Sorry Denker isn't a NT PG anymore, and he even don't have any backup.

I recently notice that LI is pretty strong strategy just take a look onto my last game -> (19973169), and in this case i had the better players and his motivation couldn't be much higher then mine(i got ten) ;)

Your team should consist of SF-s with different emphasis on different positions. You need a SF with better inside skills on C and PF positions, SF with better outside skills on PG and SG positions. I can name atleast 4 players from USA national team that can practically play any position -> C.Anthony, K.Bryant, L.James, D.Wade. There are also a lot of big men that can shoot it from behind the arc. Also a lot of pg-s that score most of their points in the paint. Just gimme a team with those 4 + nowitzki and I have a perfect SF team!

While i agree with kausasas i can accept that bb has the rules that apply on and they are deferent that the real basketball. I can accept that we have to train more balanced big men.

Indeed they are very few out there, but why? because they can train all they need without changing positions. why we dont see so many balanced big men?(you can find many versatile guards, for sure much more than bigs) because its so hard to do it. I bet that if you give us the chance to train passing at least for forwards you will see that many managers will start to train it as they train JS. Put on the account that 6'10+ players are getting trained so slowly on the guard skills, and when they came out of the draft usually very poor guard skills and you will find out why they are not so many.

You know is painful to watch your rival that trains guards wining champions at the time that you put your 7'0 C to play PG just to train his passing, and i am not sure how many managers are willing to do it.

I am not expecting major changes on the game engine and i am sure that on the lab worked perfectly. What you have overlook its how we create those versatile big men? Whats the cost for it? So i think that some tweaking on what we can train for big men (PA for forwards for example, and keep the training speed same)it will helps greatly to see much more versatile big men, therefore less protest about the subject that we are talking. Else i cant see how this will change any time soon. I think that i am suggesting something very reasonable.

What about mighty avengers two nt level centers and nt level pg still can't win a game...so what players you must have to win in inside game??

What would you say if Dembe loss, 4 NT player and one pretty more NT like Shooting guard can win games. Sorry Denker isn't a NT PG anymore, and he even don't have any backup.

I recently notice that LI is pretty strong strategy just take a look onto my last game -> (19973169), and in this case i had the better players and his motivation couldn't be much higher then mine(i got ten) ;)

Who is denker ???i wasn't talking about him...Hmm Dembe doesn't have backups either...
Wow! one game makes you think that LI is strong strategy :/
AND i still fail to understand how balanced centers are gona help in inside game,do they start jumpshotting and turning game into outside game???huh???