BuzzerBeater Forums

We haveto improve the actual 18yold,it's impossible to insert players with different ages

Wow, so quick to dis an idea with potential. You do realize that the NBA draft has some upperclassman coming out of college...? They're usually not the studs, but they're often seasoned players with a little more maturity than the younger players. It would make sense they there should be draftable players like this. Maybe they're more likely to have smaller potential, but maybe they have better (or more rounded) skills, or perhaps they might start out with more Experience. A 22-year-old bench warmer with an $9k salary is no worse than an 18-year-old bench warmer with an $5k salary since you're not really going to spend much time training either, they're going to probably be a bench player that eats minutes or beats up on bad players on overmatched teams in Cup tournaments, except if the 22-year-old can start out with skills over respectable, you won't have to waste training minutes on him. And throw in the occasional random "late bloomer" out of college, and there could be some very desirable older players out there. In short, players older than 19 can be fine players indeed, often career starters or key back-ups with an all-star here or there.

Here are just a few players in past decade (all first round picks between 2000-2009) drafted after their junior or senior year in college, listed in no particular order. Maybe you'll recognize a few...:

Deron Williams
Brandon Roy
Joakim Noah
Richard Jefferson
Darren Collison
Raymond Felton
Jason Kapono
Hakim Warrick
Emeka Okafor
Dwyane Wade
J.J. Redick
Kyle Korver
Drew Gooden
Michael Redd
Nate Robinson
Carlos Boozer
Glen Davis
Al Harford
Kenyon Martin
David West
Shane Battier
Ben Gordon
Eddie House
Kirk Hinrich
Chris Mihm
Chris Kaman
David Lee
Delonte West
Al Thornton

Wow, so quick to dis an idea with potential.

Ok, so you think we should put 20-22 year old players in the draft with salaries up to 50k or so (I estimate Deron Williams, Brandon Roy or David Lee would be at least in this range...)? Of course only one or two players of this caliber could be put in each draft pool, but imagine the rant if someone gets lucky and drafts two of those beasts in consecutive years...

How would this change the U21 competition? I think this would hugely improve the big countries and make the smaller countries almost chanceless - I would not want this to happen.

Well, there are several ways how to develop a player. I can imagine that 1phase training with lvl6 trainer is a best way for 5k 18y old rookie. But what about these teams with lower expectations? Two position or team-training with lvl4 would be great for such a 22y old player. Especially if he would go out with 1 prominent, 2 proficient and some strong skills or like that...

The advantage is in my opinion on the fact that you dont need a 5 seasons to develop some backups for you, just 1 or two seasons could be enough to keep them. While, indeed, they would cost on TL just a million or like that

Last edited by aigidios at 9/15/2010 5:35:09 AM

Wow, so quick to dis an idea with potential.

Ok, so you think we should put 20-22 year old players in the draft with salaries up to 50k or so (I estimate Deron Williams, Brandon Roy or David Lee would be at least in this range...)? Of course only one or two players of this caliber could be put in each draft pool, but imagine the rant if someone gets lucky and drafts two of those beasts in consecutive years...

How would this change the U21 competition? I think this would hugely improve the big countries and make the smaller countries almost chanceless - I would not want this to happen.

Deron Williams wasn’t an all-star as a rookie, and that is typical for drafted upperclassmen, even the ones who eventually mature and become solid if not spectacular players. Maybe Joakim Noah, drafted after his senior season, will be an all-star this coming season after his rookie season will more about his immaturity than his skills. Most of the older draftees are not household names during their careers. But then again, neither are most underclassmen. Any draft produces a variety of results. Michael Jordan, who was drafted after his junior year, was an all-star as a rookie. Maybe he wouldn’t have become “Michael Jordan” without the extra season or two learning the game from Dean Smith. These days big-time superstars are most likely to be the players drafted as underclassmen (in the case of American players who go through the college system). But overall I think the idea is to bring a little more variety to the draft.

It’s my opinion that limiting a skill level at “respectable” isn’t so realistic since we all know that some very young players out there have some serious skill before they’re 18/19. (What would John Wall’s driving skill be at?) I’m generally an advocate for introducing more individual variation between players to account for players who develop faster or slower than others, who are over the hill sooner or later than others, who actually reach their potential and who exceeds their potential. So in the case of the draft, I’m certainly in favor bringing some variety, and if that means that some players are coming out the draft with salaries already close to their potential, I’d rather see that (probably rolled out with a revised training system) then the current system that’s pretty far from reality. The “18/19-year-old only draft” with the game’s robotic training regime is a bit mundane. The fact that there are some rules of thumb about where players will top out at their specified potential and there’s no risk that a player isn’t exactly who you think he is tells me this system could use a little shake-up. A little unpredictability. A little more risk.

Okay, I recognize my thinking may seem a little radical here, but surely there are more moderate ways to bring the older players into the draft. Maybe the main difference between a younger player and an older player is the older players are more likely to be closer to their potential and would not require as much training to develop them, and maybe their potential is likely to be as high as a younger player. I would personally look favorably on an older player as a prospect if he has useful skills and I know that I could stick him on my roster and still devote more of my training time to the younger players.

NBA rookies know how to play and develop their skills through experience. I dont think Deron Williams is running faster, jumping higher or passing more precisely than he did as a rookie (not to mention the FT-issue). A NBA player is more or less fully developed when he enters the league and might develop in some areas of his game - a Ben Wallace type of career is really rare in pro sports.

BB rookies dont have experience and dont know how to play. They will run faster, jump higher and pass more precisely if they are trained.

NBA rookies know how to play and develop their skills through experience. I dont think Deron Williams is running faster, jumping higher or passing more precisely than he did as a rookie (not to mention the FT-issue). A NBA player is more or less fully developed when he enters the league and might develop in some areas of his game - a Ben Wallace type of career is really rare in pro sports.

BB rookies dont have experience and dont know how to play. They will run faster, jump higher and pass more precisely if they are trained.

What, we assume BB rookies never played high school ball? Joakim Noah was fully developed coming out of Florida? Scottie Pippen was a Hall-of-Famer before playing with Michael Jordan?

What you're referring to is another discussion on a critique of the BB training system, you realize. This is recognized and I think most folks here would probably agree with you. Shaq could never shoot free throws. Bad free throw shooters almost never become decent ones, yet somehow we can train that up. What I think you're trying to get at is that players are physically formed when they get to eh NBA (which is often not true, many players bulk up or slim down, strengthen, etc. after they get to NBA, Chauncey Billups is a good example of this), they're just getting better from playing more and more. What BB doesn't take into account is that teams have practices in real life. When MJ could break Scottie down in practice, Scottie got tougher regardless of what happened in games or what the coaching staff was focusing on in practice or game situations.

But I'm not sure what point you were making regarding older draftees.

What, we assume BB rookies never played high school ball? Joakim Noah was fully developed coming out of Florida? Scottie Pippen was a Hall-of-Famer before playing with Michael Jordan?

Scottie Pippen was a fat boy with acne who play basketball with a basket fixed on his father's garage door?
because also the strongest newly drafted player,against the best players in the Bb world,are at this level

The "Scottie Pippen" level before playing with Jordan in the BB game will be however a 30-40k player
Do you see the difference in the draft between a 4k player and a 35k player?

You could make that point about a player that 18/19 years old, too. What would LeBron James' rookie salary have been? How much would John Wall be worth?

For the purpose of BB, we don't have to be talking about rookie salaries. We don't have to make it so any rookies are coming in at 30k salaries. But I still don't see the big argument against rookies as old as 22 years old.

But I still don't see the big argument against rookies as old as 22 years old.

Put in the draft 22yold rookies with the same skills of the actual 18yold doesn't have any sense

Put 22 years old with high skill will creat greate unbalance in the draft

I don't see reason why 22 years old should be inserted in the draft,imho,we have yet to improve the 19yold level...

But I still don't see the big argument against rookies as old as 22 years old.

18/19 year old players can be developed, a 22 year old 10k player with serious deficits (missing crucial skill) can be dumped right away as training such a player would be a waste of time.

22 year old rookies would only make a sense if they would be strong enough to compete on a mediocre-high level (depening on position that would be 25-50k salaries). How can you put those players in the mix?

I imagine a possible draft could look like this:

Pick 1: 18 year old HOF SG 4k salary
Pick 2: 22 year old All-Star PG 50k salary
Pick 3: 19 year old superstar PF 5k salary
Pick 4: 21 year old star 20k SF salary
....

That would create huge imbalance, imo. Instead of putting in older rookies in the game I would remove the 19 year olds and make all players start at the age of 18 (or vice versa, remove the 18yo and make all start at 19).