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A counter argument could be made that GMs punish other countries more harshly do to racist/nationalist/religious beliefs.

Should we have a panel of judges like an Olympic scoring system for gymnastics?

First of all, I'm going to operate on the assumption that this is a hypothetical situation

Hypothetical of course

The first thing is that there is an appeals process available for any ban/fine levied, and seeing a GM ban or fine reduced or even eliminated is not a rare event.

I don't care about the hypothetical penalty on the American manager, it might be well deserved, I'm worried about the non penalty on the Greek manager in the example. Nothing you can do there. So if I have a friend GM he can fine someone without fining me. The other guy will not know whether I've been fined and he definitely will not have any appeal against something he does not know.

Let me add that the reaction speed 'bias' of some GMs is fairly suspicious.

Secondly, there is obviously a potential conflict of interest, but I would think that one would have to have a very low opinion of the GMs in general to think that "we can't trust the GMs to actually penalise people from their own community the same way they are penalising others."

No doubt about it, but what is your point? It's not like all GMs are nice, outspoken people like you, Manon when he was a GM or even Perpete...

Finally, the thing is, you'll never know in that hypothetical case whether he sanctioned the Greek manager, nor would you (or should you) know what sanctions were applied against the American user

Let's say I know the 'American' manager has been sanctioned (obviously, otherwise I wouldn't know that the GM is also 'Greek'), I obviously don't know what happened with the 'Greek' manager, but that's exactly my problem in the first place, that nobody has any control on that conflict of interest between GM and Manager.

Therefore my proposal is that in this situations the case is passed on to a GM from different country

Last edited by Lemonshine at 2/29/2016 10:13:11 AM

First of all, I'm going to operate on the assumption that this is a hypothetical situation, because I am sure you're aware that discussing staff decisions is forbidden. Luckily, I know of no scenario currently that sounds anything like this, so we'll keep it general.

There's a very important thing you just said there. Discussing staff decisions if forbidden. Any discussion. If you feel you've been wronged, then tough. I've always been uncomfortable with a rule like that. There should always be a place for reasonable discussion. Which we can't have, so we have to keep it hypothetical.

Secondly, there is obviously a potential conflict of interest, but I would think that one would have to have a very low opinion of the GMs in general to think that "we can't trust the GMs to actually penalise people from their own community the same way they are penalising others."

GMs, and indeed EGMs, are human, and not bots. Humans are flawed. I'd counter that you'd have to have a very high opinion of your fellow humans not to think there's a possibility of the influence of both country and friendship. Or indeed, its ugly cousin, the hatred of certain nations.

Finally, the thing is, you'll never know in that hypothetical case whether he sanctioned the Greek manager, nor would you (or should you) know what sanctions were applied against the American user

If I am sanctioned, I don't know if my counterpart in Greece, America, or the planet Zarg is sanctioned. Its an opaque world we live in when we're sanctioned. Another problem I have with removal of posts, is that I'm only aware of what I said. I've no idea what was said in reply to me if I don't read it in time. The user from the planet Zarg was able to see what I said and reply, but I am not quite blissfully unaware of what he said to, or about me.

I'm aware that by signing up for the game in the first place, I agreed to accept the game as it is. I don't however feel hypocritical by disagreeing with rules, while still (usually) obeying them.

I'm simply not used to unquestioning obedience.

Shouldn't it at least be considered that in a dispute situation, such as this hypothetical one, a GM from an independent nation should make the decisions. To avoid situations where GMs can be accused of looking after there friends/countrymen.

The first thing is that there is an appeals process available for any ban/fine levied, and seeing a GM ban or fine reduced or even eliminated is not a rare event.

I don't care about the hypothetical penalty on the American manager, it might be well deserved, I'm worried about the non penalty on the Greek manager in the example. Nothing you can do there. So if I have a friend GM he can fine someone without fining me. The other guy will not know whether I've been fined and he definitely will not have any appeal against something he does not know.

In that scenario, if you are of the opinion that another user has acted contrary to the rules of the game, you can and should report the user and post (I forget if there's a report post button any more since I see different stuff, but if not, the Report Cheaters link in the menu is appropriate).

Any GM can see the decisions taken by other GMs, so to survive with unfair decisions, a GM would have to fool all the other GMs. Most if not all the GMs have taken more decisions against their countrymates than any other country. Since we can also track more easily the messages from our countrymates in their own language, in an international dispute, they are more at risk too.

Which leads me to another problem we have in England. I've been informed by an EGM (am I even allowed to repeat what he tells me? I've no idea) that the English forum isn't well moderated. I know that an English user applied to be a GM and was rejected because England was too small and didn't need a GM. I believe when it is moderated its done by Europeans, and not by someone whose first language is English. This had led in the past to misunderstandings. In fact, I once complimented a Frenchman, who took offence and complained presumably to another non English speaker and my post was deleted. An appeal over something so small would have wasted everyone's time, but it would have been so much simpler if the English forum was moderated by someone whose first language was English.

You can always send a mail to appeals@buzzerbeater.com if you are unhappy with a decision.

You can always send a mail to appeals@buzzerbeater.com if you are unhappy with a decision.

I'm 100% certain Lemonshine is already aware of that.