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Strongly disagree with the statement that blowing a team out has no effect on trainees getting 48+ minutes. Wacky things happen in garbage time. I don't really recommend CPDC either.

And you'd be wrong. Every single sentence in your post is incorrect. This reply is also for the 6 people who liked your post and seem to support misinformation.

1 sentence+2 sentence. Garbage time does not affect the substitution pattern any more than described by Perpete and Manon. This is my Utopia team (276019), I have 3 trainees, Mr Porridge (34618483), Mr Corny (35872040), Mr Turtle (35439933). Note that Mr. Turtle had much better inside skills for the entire duration of his training (in other words, he has been really playing out of position at PG). I invite you to check how many times they missed 48 minutes because of a garbage time. Hint: the number is 0. In fact, as far as I can remember in 20ish times I trained single position in the past couple of seasons none of them has ever missed training.

Garbage time is very predictable, the bench players get subbed in and play. If you have less than 5 bench players they will follow the depth chart in both SFDC or CPfDC if they had been assigned a role as backup. If you have 5 bench players and some don't have an assigned role then the coach might sub them in at the positions where you haven't selected a backup or where another player has been slotted as multiple backup. If you have 5 or more all the bench will go in, if stamina/skill allow for it. Again those with no assigned role will sub in at their best position.
As mentioned, it's extremely predictable, if you have a full lineup set.

Bottom line the sub patter in garbage time with 4 or less players each with a selected position as backups in SFDC and CPfDC is entirely predictable and I'd like you to show proof if you maintain this is not the case.

3. You're also wrong in not recommending CPfDC either. The manager you replied to is actually correct in saying that both SFDC and CPfDc are equally fine. CPfDC yields better ratings and prevents the wacky sub patterns where all the starters are pulled at the same time. Also by setting a better player as backup, that player will play the bulk of the minutes without approaching the 40 minute mark where he would otherwise get to. However CPfDC is bugged as when the backup is much stronger than the starter, then the coach will subvert the Depth Chart set by the manager and will start the backup. Even when this happens the better player will get less minutes than he would have had in SFDC.

CPfDC basically evaluates the players selected as starter and backup at any given position, based on skills, game shape and stamina. However each player is given an additional coefficient depending on whether he was slotted as starter or backup, starters have higher coefficients. As stamina reduces during a game a substitution is triggered if the guy on the bench overtakes the guy currently playing in his overall evaluation (which includes the starter/backup coefficient). When even with the starter coefficient the backup has got the better evaluation outright, the coach will subvert the depth chart selected by the manager.

Last edited by Lemonshine at 8/14/2015 5:35:53 AM

Maybe I'm not being clear. So if my guy gets 47 minutes half a dozen times and 46 minutes three other times over 8 seasons of training, how many extra weeks of training are needed to make up for lost time and to attain your desired results? Probably not significant.

I am blowing out like 70% of my opponents and I am training 6 guys - unless there is an occasional foul out or some injury I almost never had issues with getting 48+ minutes. It's quite puzzling why so many people have problems with getting the minutes right.

It's actually very simple if people who think they know it all while they actually don't spread misinformation (please bring proof if you make absolute statements, I have my own teams for 5-7 season and at least 10 trainees to support my claims and I have already linked the history of my current trainees in Utopia).

These are the rules that need to be followed:
Required
1. Obviously use the all star setting to set the depth chart for the game
2. Use SFDC OR CPfDC as the american manager was saying and was told off
3. Use 9 players or 8 players OR less in the lineup depending on whether you train single position or double position
4. Assign a starting or backup depth chart slot to each player. No player should be in the lineup and not have a depth chart slot selected. In most cases I select 1 Starter/Backup slot for each player leaving the rest blank and it is more than enough (I only select reserves if I use 10 or more guys). If it makes you feel safer, fill the entire depth chart, but with 8 or 9 players it won't matter.

Almost necessary and player specific
5. The trainee is not foul prone (note that this is boosted by the next point)
6. The trainee has not low stamina. This increases fouls and might also lead to the trainee being subbed out irrespective of option selected be it SFDC/CPfDC/LCD. As a benchmark, I think Sid Vicious or some other manager from down under found that a solid 4 Stamina is required to prevent a stamina driven substitution

If you do this there is only bad luck which could come into play: injury, foul out and FT substitution (a temporary switch where the trainee gets subbed out because the player who should be subbed out is shooting free throws).

Note that 5 and 6 are less and less relevant the better the trainee is compared to the best players available in the lineup. A substitution is more likely to happen when you are training out of position AND you have other players who are significantly better at that position in the lineup. This effect might be boosted (hence the misinformation being spread here above) in garbage time if another of your starters (who will sit on the bench in garbage time) is much better than the trainee at the position the trainee is playing AND the trainee stamina is too low.

Do you mean to say that a trainee will not miss minutes if settings are correct, and no injury/foulout occur?

(69305292)
No subs before garbage time, but when it is my guy gets subbed right away:
3 1:54 19 — 82 It looks like we're now in garbage time.
3 1:54 19 — 82 S. Horák (H) comes off the bench to replace C. Crespi (H) at PG.

(66025407) no garbage time mention, but 32 point differential and first sub at
4 6:27 90 — 58 F. Sharifinia (A) comes in to replace C. Crespi (A) at PG.

(66024529) no garbage time mention but 35 pd and first sub at
4 6:06 52 — 87 S. Horák (H) substituted for C. Crespi (H) at SG.

(72611178) 23 pd and no subs before
4 0:39 109 — 86 S. Horák (A) comes in to replace D. Custers (A) at PG.

(72611098) 26 pd and no subs before
4 0:41 98 — 72 N. Matsyura (A) brought in for D. Custers (A) at PF.

(72611074)

I can't show you the lineup I used, but I've been training a long time and these were not all mistakes in the lineup (otherwise there would be subs earlier in the game). It only happens in blowouts and when a weak player for the position is trained. I'll count stamina as part of the player being weak, because I'm not sure if it's a independent factor.

Have you read my post in its entirety? What was the stamina of the trainee and what was the salary of the trainee and of the guy who subbed in for him? Tactics and depth chart? Something clearly does not look right: I've never seen a trainee going out in and back out in garbage time when being the only player set for the position: either they go out for good or stay in. It's also very suspicious that the guy who replaced him at SG actually started at PF (and the starter was not a guard playing there due to Patient)...

The reason this happens in garbage time more often than in close games is...that the starters in garbage time go to the bench. It means that the best players are on the bench and it's easy to trigger the condition that a bench player is so much better than a stamina depleted trainee.

Check my utopia team. My trainees were 19 and 20 and they were playing alongside 30k-40k guards and they were never subbed. On the other hand, I've had trainees with low stamina in the past and they nearly always got subbed out with 1, 2 or 3 minute to go (when they didn't foul out).

People don't see these things and make conclusions because they don't have full information. If you play a lineup of 9 trainee level players, the trainee is unlikely to be subbed even with low stamina. People in higher divisions are almost never in this situation, but lower division and utopia managers can tell their experience. If you have a large gap in quality against a player on the bench and low stamina it may happen, in fact it's almost guaranteed with some players. I have seen it happen. I had a player in the past who almost never got 48, he was both very foul prone and had 1 stamina (for more than a season which means that towards at some point, he should have reached 1 flat).

So, if your team is imbalanced and:
a) your best players are starting and you have garbage time
b) your best players are backups and you don't have garbage time (less likely situation of course)
you better train some stamina and hope that your guy is not foul prone.

Fouling out and FT substitutions are the only things you can't do anything about (well you can reduce the number of foul outs if you train defense and stamina but that's about it).

Best way to go about these things is getting 6 or more stamina trainees so that when they are young and the skill gap with the best players on the team is very high they won't get subbed out due to stamina depletion and after that they are good enough in their own right.

Last edited by Lemonshine at 8/14/2015 8:04:12 AM

I did read your post #33, but the next on you posted while I was typing mine so I didn't read that one yet.

Phyr said "(I) Strongly disagree with the statement that blowing a team out has no effect on trainees getting 48+ minutes."

You said he was wrong and was spreading misinformatin right? But I showed you (and you agreed) that blowouts can effect 48+ minutes. Not in all situations, but there are situations where it affects 48+ minutes. So Phyr is not wrong, but I agree it is not necessary to avoid blowouts as a whole and blame everything on it.

I applaud your effort to explain how you can ensure blowouts do NOT effect 48+, because there are indeed other factors in play (which we both named in stamina/skill for position relative to the sub). This is important to know so we can avoid misunderstandings because people only tell 1 side of the story.

This is why I address you too, because it's not that blowouts have no effect, it's just 1 factor that combined with others has an effect. Some people say "I never had trouble with blowouts, so they do not affect 48+ minutes". That is wrong, because they only do not affect it in their situation, but it can in others. If we get too stuck on talking in absolute statements, the actual important information (you did great in explaining them) gets lost in between.

Having a backup trainee still counts as training 3 players.

BBs have admitted CPFDC is bugged. If it works for you, you do you bro. My Dutch friend answered the other part of your question.

Last edited by Phyr at 8/14/2015 9:18:30 AM

You said he was wrong and was spreading misinformatin right? But I showed you (and you agreed) that blowouts can effect 48+ minutes. Not in all situations, but there are situations where it affects 48+ minutes. So Phyr is not wrong, but I agree it is not necessary to avoid blowouts as a whole and blame everything on it.

No I don't agree that blowouts affect the substitution of weak trainees and I maintain Phyr is indeed wrong on the subject (while the other american manager was correct). I say this because it's not garbage time or a blow out that causes the trainee to be subbed out. What causes it is the combination of the player having poor skills and stamina and the fact that on the bench there are better options.

You should realise that such statements can't be right because you have the same exact problem in non garbage time games, where a trainee with poor stamina and relatively poor skills gets subbed out for a better player. The issue appears more often in garbage time only because most people start their better players, but it is not caused by garbage time, hence the misinformation. If you play CPfDC, like the other american manager said he did, odds are you figured out what happens when the stronger players are set as backups to begin with and how to take advantage of it.

Now try this if you will: play your better players as backup in a blowout game where you are guaranteed to have garbage time and see if your trainee gets pulled. If you have garbage time then your best players will be in because they are backups. See for yourself if they take the trainee's place then. Note that in CPfDC a significantly better player will play most of the minutes in the first 3 quarters as well regardless of whether he is a starter or a backup, but he is guaranteed to play all garbage time if he was set as backup. The only caveat with CPfDC is that if your backup is so much stronger than the starter, the coach will subvert the orders and start him instead....but the guy set as backup by you in the original depth chart will still play all garbage time (I've had this happening in the same game and the guy I set as backup played 45-46 minutes). The coach subverting the manager's order is a known bug.

So to recap. If you know you will have garbage time and if you know your trainee has poor stamina and skills not good enough to be kept in the game until the end, then there is a logical conclusion isn't there? You make sure the potential substitutes (your top players at the position of training) will be playing somewhere else in garbage time by setting them as backups or will not play at all. Ultimately, as Trainerman said, it's very unlikely you will not be able to predict garbage time (unless your opponent surprisingly throws a game which he should have been able to compete in), so you should be able to prepare for it.

Last edited by Lemonshine at 8/14/2015 9:56:09 AM