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Suggestions > Balance the luxury tax in the future

Balance the luxury tax in the future

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This Post:
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277294.34 in reply to 277294.33
Date: 2/21/2016 7:28:54 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
370370
Perhaps if you can at least point out the source of this:
He came right out and said the reason for what he did to the economy was to make training more profitable to try to get more players trained.

You'll remember that "Welcome to Season 33" 15 Nov 15 addressed changes to the FA system. Most people realized long before that that we needed more FA's as at least a partial repair to the Transfer Market, and it appeared Marin listened and understood. Language such as "The change should help fill in the gaps in market demand" could only be read that way. When it turned out that he had done the opposite and made less not more FA's overall, there was what can only be described as a "firestorm" (to be polite) in the Forums. It was during his defense of the changes that he let slip that what was done was done deliberately, and it was done to make training more profitable so that more players would be trained. So that is the context of the remark, and the approximate time frame. If you need the exact quote I refer you to the Search function for the Forums.

There you are. No arguing.

This Post:
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277294.35 in reply to 277294.32
Date: 2/21/2016 7:57:47 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
117117
Trainees are the only thing cheap on the market right now, because of the glut at the start of every season.


Irrelevant trainees that wouldn't sell 12 months ago are "cheap". Everything else is inflated. Feel free to show me an 18 year old that has sold for 9 million in the past.

This Post:
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277294.36 in reply to 277294.35
Date: 2/21/2016 8:13:30 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
370370
Feel free to show me an 18 year old that has sold for 9 million in the past.

I never said anything about that guy, I don't know who he is, and I am not obcessed with him. In fact, I am not interested in him. If I made any other comments in this thread, please read them as I wrote them and get this particular trainee out of your head as he is not in mine. Cool.

This Post:
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277294.37 in reply to 277294.36
Date: 2/21/2016 8:35:23 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
117117
Facts are facts. Don't dismiss them just because they don't suit your opinion.

This Post:
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277294.38 in reply to 277294.37
Date: 2/21/2016 11:50:15 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
370370
Facts are facts. Don't dismiss them just because they don't suit your opinion.

LOL, I am not arguing with you. And I am not arguing against any actual facts. I am just not too interested in some of them. Chill.

This Post:
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277294.39 in reply to 277294.34
Date: 2/22/2016 10:46:51 AM
Overall Posts Rated:
32293229
Perhaps if you can at least point out the source of this:
He came right out and said the reason for what he did to the economy was to make training more profitable to try to get more players trained.


There you are. No arguing.


(270968.3)
(270734.28)
(270734.98) *
(270734.99) *
(270150.24)
(270150.28)

The two with asterisks are the most revealing. He did in fact say they like high TL prices as they encourage training. Conflating that with an organized effort to make sure that training is more profitable is a stretch; it was merely to try to balance out the prior situation where training was... well, don't let me put words in mouths, let's look at the start of the second starred post above:
Where there used to be balance in building a roster through drafting/training AND the transfer list, now we're going to have to build our rosters mainly through drafting/training.

Again, an exaggeration. We are not affecting the prices in such an order that would completely annihilate trading. I do like the change of tone though, we are all on the same side here.


This is a direct statement that the BB team is not directly aiming to make significant and dramatic changes in the economy there; the decisions being made were in the context of the TL prices already rising and this was an action to not significantly intervene. The motivations of training being more rewarded (coming back into a balance with trading) is true, but I think "what he did to the economy" is a massive overstatement.

I have considered your whole post, and there are three points (above) that I would like to address. (1) I understand now that training is at the apex of this game. (2) Managers utilizing many different approaches, each with an equal chance of success if they do it equally skillfully, would seem ideal to me, rather than favoring one to the exclusion of others. (3) We'll see if the market is balanced. My perception as manager of a lower- and mid-level team was that the market already favored training over transfer by a wide margin, and the recent change has further imbalanced it. We'll see.

(1) True. (2) A balance between these types of managers is exactly what we're trying to achieve. Details of that balance have been explained above. (3) This is, of course, an opinion from your standpoint and as such it is valued. Global statistics are a whole different game. I agree that we need time to see where this leads us.


This, I think, is the context - when the balance is too strong toward either over-incentivizing the reliance upon free agents or over-rewarding training, changes need to happen to encourage behavior that moves to the center. The pace of training ensures that while supply and demand controls prices, the userbase is going to be unable to significantly increase supply to intelligently capitalize on this. I don't see any evidence of an intentional action to completely overhaul the economy by BB fiat to enforce a pro-training agenda, which is what I'd expect to see if, as you wrote: "He came right out and said the reason for what he did to the economy was to make training more profitable to try to get more players trained."

I don't disagree with the characterization that at the time he was not disturbed by increasing prices, and that he did not move significantly to reduce them, and that reducing free agency might even have encouraged prices to rise further. I think that a fair reading of the quotes shows that rather than being a scheme by BB-Marin to intentionally impose an economic condition promoting training, it was instead the economy itself was already headed in this direction and Marin considered that as a positive step at the time towards better balance between training and building primarily through FA (the quotes related to that was in one of the non-starred pos

This Post:
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277294.40 in reply to 277294.35
Date: 2/22/2016 12:32:22 PM
Edson Rush
III.3
Overall Posts Rated:
262262
Irrelevant trainees that wouldn't sell 12 months ago are "cheap". Everything else is inflated. Feel free to show me an 18 year old that has sold for 9 million in the past.


True, but inflation works both ways: train some irrelevant trainees for a few seasons and instead of selling for 200 or 300k like they used to they might sell for a million. Training can be profitable, but buying the best trainee on the market and then training him with a level 7 trainer is not profitable, but it never was. Also part of the reason that guy may have sold for so high is that teams may be trying to dump some money due to the new hoarding tax.

Last edited by Mountaineer at 2/22/2016 12:36:15 PM

This Post:
00
277294.41 in reply to 277294.39
Date: 2/22/2016 2:19:51 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
370370
First of all, thank you for looking back into this. I think you have identified the correct area of posts.
I don't disagree with the characterization that at the time he was not disturbed by increasing prices, and that he did not move significantly to reduce them, and that reducing free agency might even have encouraged prices to rise further. I think that a fair reading of the quotes shows that rather than being a scheme by BB-Marin to intentionally impose an economic condition promoting training, it was instead the economy itself was already headed in this direction and Marin considered that as a positive step at the time towards better balance between training and building primarily through FA (the quotes related to that was in one of the non-starred posts.

Wow, there is an awfully fine line between "it was already going toward higher prices and we just let it go there" and "we made prices higher." I think that line is so fine as to not exist. The bottom line is still that through deliberate action or inaction prices were caused or allowed to raise to a point even further than they were already at. I think you see my point -- it was an intentional choice and it favored training over the transfer market.

It was acknowledged that there would be effects on the transfer market. Evidently the magnitude of the effects was unanticipated, but it still remains that the transfer market is now hyper-inflated,at least in significant part because of those decisions. And because of that hyper-inflation, use of the transfer market to create a competitive team is lost for the time being. When the cost of a useful player is more than a full season's profits, I don't think the word "trashed" is out of line.

Not only that, but by favoring training through the economy instead of by reforming training directly, the effects of the decisions reverberate through every corner of BB. Maybe it is time to try reforming training itself and stop interfering with the economy.

Thanks again for your willingness to look closely at all this.

This Post:
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277294.42 in reply to 277294.41
Date: 2/22/2016 2:41:39 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
32293229
First of all, thank you for looking back into this. I think you have identified the correct area of posts.
I don't disagree with the characterization that at the time he was not disturbed by increasing prices, and that he did not move significantly to reduce them, and that reducing free agency might even have encouraged prices to rise further. I think that a fair reading of the quotes shows that rather than being a scheme by BB-Marin to intentionally impose an economic condition promoting training, it was instead the economy itself was already headed in this direction and Marin considered that as a positive step at the time towards better balance between training and building primarily through FA (the quotes related to that was in one of the non-starred posts.

Wow, there is an awfully fine line between "it was already going toward higher prices and we just let it go there" and "we made prices higher." I think that line is so fine as to not exist. The bottom line is still that through deliberate action or inaction prices were caused or allowed to raise to a point even further than they were already at. I think you see my point -- it was an intentional choice and it favored training over the transfer market.

It was acknowledged that there would be effects on the transfer market. Evidently the magnitude of the effects was unanticipated, but it still remains that the transfer market is now hyper-inflated,at least in significant part because of those decisions. And because of that hyper-inflation, use of the transfer market to create a competitive team is lost for the time being. When the cost of a useful player is more than a full season's profits, I don't think the word "trashed" is out of line.

Not only that, but by favoring training through the economy instead of by reforming training directly, the effects of the decisions reverberate through every corner of BB. Maybe it is time to try reforming training itself and stop interfering with the economy.

Thanks again for your willingness to look closely at all this.


No problem. And on the bright side, since last season Marin has decided that players over 60 TSP and under 60k salaries were too expensive, so they're all eligible for free agency, which surely means that those prices will be dropped down to inconsequential levels. I mean, if "Marin dictates, the market follows" is the law of the land, training was just again killed other than, of course, players with high salaries. That of course was great for me since I had to actually bolster my roster for two promotions to III.5, and so that change saved me tons of money.

Well, okay, maybe it didn't save me that much. Or anything at all. Perhaps now that we know that the prices are too high, we should let the market know FA changed last season, since it seems currently to be persisting in the ridiculous notion that players should cost more than half a league game's revenue.

This Post:
00
277294.43 in reply to 277294.40
Date: 2/22/2016 2:49:26 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
117117
True, but inflation works both ways: train some irrelevant trainees for a few seasons and instead of selling for 200 or 300k like they used to they might sell for a million. Training can be profitable, but buying the best trainee on the market and then training him with a level 7 trainer is not profitable, but it never was.


I absolutely agree with you, but my point was more that everything is inflated, as opposed to training is cheaper view. As an establishing team, I haven't been shy from going for trainees nobody wanted and using them for value. In saying that, the initial cost of a trainer is reducing the profit significantly.

Also part of the reason that guy may have sold for so high is that teams may be trying to dump some money due to the new hoarding tax.

Most likely. And if that is the case, that team will still have more money than they need at div4. Also, teams recieving just short of 10 million for a single draft pick isn't going to do anything but accelerate inflation. Money needs to be syphoned out of the economy, not redistributed back into the system.

This Post:
00
277294.44 in reply to 277294.42
Date: 2/22/2016 2:51:18 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
370370
Some of those 60/60 FA's are at such a salary that they are already overpriced at the opening bid. We should not injure our elbows patting ourselves on the back over these guys. As market-correctors they are ineffective.

we should let the market know FA changed last season, since it seems currently to be persisting in the ridiculous notion that players should cost more than half a league game's revenue.
We should let the market-driver-fellow know that useful players cost more than a season's net revenue.

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