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Your player tries what he thinks is best. Experience helps him not making mistakes in taking a decision on what to do.
If he misses so many layups, it's because he can't find anything better to do most of the time. So no, he can't pass, not well enough for your opponents defence. It's not only his own ability but your team's ability too.

Honestly, i´m talking about Lucic in a Patient Offense, which is simply not working at all. And to some degree you have to trust me that there would be other options with a higher possibility of conversion than him going for a layup, even in todays game. But nevertheless, this is to no degree a discussion abuot my player, mind going back on topic? This is not me whining Lucic can´t do it (or at least it wasn´t before you kept posting your theories), and I don´t want it to start beeing it either.

Last edited by LA-seelenjaeger at 8/23/2011 4:36:59 PM

What you do not seem to understand is, that he is unable to find those opportunitys with his passing. You team is not actually a top dog in your league. There could be Dwight Howard wide open under the basket, with Muggsy Bogues guarding him, he just can't make that pass.
What you are rooting here is: give my SG inside offence bonus, where his passing skill and experience does not matter, because he has read books about this offence and is really suited for it from birth. Train the skills needed to pass inside and he will drive less and will take less ill advised shots.

Edit: about the patient offence. You were playing with let them play and as an aggressive player he was in foul trouble most of the game, thus his ratings were affected. He still had hit 9-18 (4-6 3pointers) at half time. Where is the problem? Eventually he ended up with 14-35 (40%) while shooting 6-12 beyond the arc. 7-10 FT-s. I don't know about his stamina value, but if you force him to play the entire game and think that his stats are bad, then??? What are good stats?

Last edited by Kukoc at 8/23/2011 5:18:57 PM

Mind going back to the topic?

And -no- I was not playing with "let them play". Any more in-depth analysis?

We are on topic, we are trying to explain how skills determine players actions in games and how this suggestion adds nothing to the game.
You had 2 fouls on him after 7 mins and 3 fouls on him at 13 min mark. Thats more than 16 mins in foul trouble.
We can prolly stop discussing this now and let the thread die.

This is about the possibility of "adding" a "preferred offense" skill, and not about a single game of Nenad Lucic. I have multiple games with him playing different positions in Patient offense, some working fine, some not, and I´ve seen less talented players excel in this offense against stronger competition. While you´re focusing on him in a game where he played 48 minutes on PG for training reasons, I do have my resasons (with a wider basis than you might think) to believe that he´s a guy that - although having not too shabby skills for this offense type - cannot "shine" in this offense because he´s making bad decisions.

Now i seriously doubt that you have deep enough insight into him, my team, my opponents and the engine, to tell me, that "giving him 2 more levels of passing" will cure it all. I´m to some degree sick of people coming out all the time and telling other people "hey, that´s obvious, just because you lack this and that", not because I think they are completely wrong, just because I think people are focusing so much on DETAIL that they forget to see the whole.

So let´s say Lucic has a "favourite" offense of let´s say Motion, which gives him ... let´s just say - .15 gameshape boost when playing Motion - how does his current inability to play Patient Offense be whatever reason is "on Topic" about the proposal of that skill?

I understand what you mean, you are making an example. But what I am saying is that if you are playing RnG, you should have players on your team that can run that offense pretty well. I am not suggesting a physical skill/ ability to run it, it more deals with player mental skill and ability to run it and that is where the "bonus ability" ties in. What I meant with my quote is that the offense and the player are both out of place.

I meant if everything is equal. Your worst player is more than likely better than my whole team. To answer that questiion, there is no way I can make that happen. There is just a possibility that can still happen if we both had the same training abilities.

What I am trying to point out is not the physical part of the game, but the mental. Why is it given that they already know how to run those offenses? And why do they know what and where to take the shots? This game should be just as mental as it is physical. My thing is that if you know or skilled to play a type of offense, why not get a boost.

I like an offense of well rounded players like the next guy. That is what I base my team on right now. But sometimes I laugh at the fact that my center is pretty good at run and gun. Irl the only post players that can be effective is PF/C hybrids. Most prototypical centers wouldn't do run and gun.

Don't you understand, that creating useless extra boost is pointless. We have skills like experience, game shape and skill combination - this is all you need to play offences successfully. If your player seems to make the same kind of mistakes over and over again. Perhaps you should start training the skills that affect those mistakes or wait until he gets more exp. Even adding 0.15 game shape value to certain offences leads teams to select most (if not all) players with that added bonus. Eventually leading to price distortion at the TL, with certain offence type players price going up and other player prices dropping. How many good managers you know who do not use specced staff? It's a small boost, but it's still a boost, that might give you an edge over the other managers.
Nevertheless your trivial 0.15 GS boost to your SG player (or whomeever you want that quick fix for) will not make him suddenly a great decision maker. He still needs to have the skills to back it up. If he does not posess the passing skills to find an open man in pressure defence, no knowledge of the current tactic used, helps him in that situation.

"giving him 2 more levels of passing"

I never said 2 levels of passing will cure it all. I said your JS, DR are too strong compared to his PA skill, thus making him drive and shoot before going for the harder option of passing. You knowledge of his skills and tests in different positions, should already inform you of his weaknesses and strenghts. Why root for the quick fix?
I have seen a lot of suggestions. Suggesting itself is good, but people tend not to think about the suggestions effect in the long run. People need to understand that suggesting something in the area: "the players plays better today, because he had dinner with his mom and is happy because of it" or "player plays better, because he just had an intimate moment with his girlfriend/ plays worse because his legs are gone because of it / or just broke up with his GF" is pointless.
All of these are RL events, that affect outcomes in games. Are they good for BB and would they fit in? No! They make the game messy.

Like I said, there are lower leagues where the BB player listed as Guard can easily be better than a Forwar or Center (just like in RL). But you do not see any 6'5 C-s or 7'4 PG in the top leagues (just like in RL).

What I am trying to point out is not the physical part of the game, but the mental. Why is it given that they already know how to run those offenses? And why do they know what and where to take the shots? This game should be just as mental as it is physical. My thing is that if you know or skilled to play a type of offense, why not get a boost.

Every basketball player can play in any offence. His experience determines how good he is in his decision making. Experience skill is present in BB. Still if you put a player with atrocius passing to PG spot and try to run Motion. He is going to make more turnovers, than passes. Perhaps if he has good exp, he tryes to shove the ball to SG and make him run the offence more.