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What you (and Joe) is ignoring is that not all training is equal. If you take a player with the same level of skills throughout (so there is no elastic effect) some skills train 'more' or 'faster', depending on how you think about it. SB trains more than any other inside skill, so everything else being equal you will train quicker by training SB. Even if you account for the fact that IS will be higher than ID after you train 1v1 forwards you need a massive difference between IS and ID for the elastic effect of IS on ID to make up the higher base speed of SB.

I agree with you that we need quantitative numbers to validate this and training speed between different skills differ. Your table is pretty comprehensive but I am not familiair with the percentages you’re using. What’s the source of these numbers or are they a rough estimate?

The source is Coach Parrot. The percentages I used were meant to give an idea of how much secondary training goes into those skills. I took a player with the same value across all skills (no elastic effect anywhere).

So according to the model the elastic effect on inside skills doesn’t have a very big impact on the decision which skills to train first. Or am I mistaking?

As hrudey said, this kind of level of finesse it's usually only relevant for HoF or MVP SF where it matters to get the most skills possible and not reaching a goal 2, 3 or 5 sessions earlier, because you have limited or no cap constraints.

When I look at the training simulator spreadsheet at SB training I see that SB will increase with 0,79 and ID with 0,23 (which is 29% when I divide this by 0,79). For 6'0" ID increases with 24% when training SB. That’s different than the 40% you’re using.

The table you want for baseline speed (before accounting for height, age, elastics, coach level etc) in Coach Parrot is in Sheet 'Coeff', Cells B224:AF233

Last edited by Lemonshine at 7/23/2017 5:36:53 PM

As Lemonish said, SB trains cca 1,23 times faster than ID/IS and about 1,33 times faster than RB. That is why SB is benefecial to pull first and so set the elastic effect.

If that is what we're looking at we may want to look at the guard elastics like OD vs JR that doesn't have any secondary connection or how high HA influences PA even though it doesn't train it through secondary training.

I can confirm, that HA>>>>PA boosts the PA-training tremendously. (I don´t have numbers, just subjective perception/experiences)

But your question is pretty nice, because I had some issues with the same question.

If we consider the fact that OD-Training also includes ID as secondary training we may ask, if a high ID might have an elastic effect on OD-Training as well. -> This might be useful for finishing training for bigmen, but also could mean that starting (after 1on1) with the BIG-Men-Training for a Guard could also make sense

And as mentioned earlier in this thread: 1on1 sets up the elastic effect for several other skills to develop.

JR trains as secondary skills JS + OD. Therefore, if the JS (boosted by 1on1/JS) and the OD (boostet by HA/ ID (?) ) are relativly much higher than JR, then a relativly quick development of the JR-Skill can be expected.

OD trains as secondary skills HA + ID. So a high HA (boostet by 1on1/HA/PA) + high ID (boostet by SB/ID/IS) is needed for a high elastic effect on OD. (Under consideration of the prior mentioned targets and time/trainingspeed limitations)

I like the idea you guys mentioned to use the first 2-3 seasons to train each skill to a certain level and set up the elastic effect by training 1on1. I think, I will prioritize this two steps with my new project.


PS: with my first SF project I trained ID-RB-IS-SB......the results/speed werent that great. Therefore, I´m with the SB-First-Theory and hope to get better results next time.

Nice weekend and regards

Bommy

JR trains as secondary skills JS + OD.

As far as I know JR doesn't train OD as a secundary (source: Coach Parrot and Training Simulator)

I also asked some Dutch experienced managers about possible elastics between (high) ID which could speed up OD. When training big men in OD after inside training that effect wasn't noticeable.

I had the same question as Manon which is more or less in line with the game manual as I mentioned earlier in this topic.

It’s in line with the game manual as well according related skills: If the skills who are receiving secundary training are higher than the primary trained skill, the primary trained skill increases faster.

So I think there's still no plausible explanation why OD/JR and HA/PA are elastic.

Some time ago Joey ka defined a hypothesis but later he said that he didn't believe it anymore, although Coach Parrot is still based on it ((78242.422). I'm not sure but perhaps it has something to do with the OD/JR and HA/PA elastics.

Anyway, based on this topic I changed my mind on the inside training and which skills to train first (SB first).

As far as I know JR doesn't train OD as a secundary (source: Coach Parrot and Training Simulator)

You´re right. I was quite sure, that I read it in a german forum, but I was mistaken. Sorry my bad.

I also asked some Dutch experienced managers about possible elastics between (high) ID which could speed up OD. When training big men in OD after inside training that effect wasn't noticeable.

I think this depends on the training strategy you´re using. Going first for the straight A-Skills and finish then with B-Skills (AB-principle) or the other way round might make this effect unnoticeable, due to the age of the bigmen or the training order (if OD comes first).

If you go for the ABA strategy, you can take a small (!) advantage to this effect. I have to admitt, that I just talking by a little experience, because I tried this once with my current SF. The results were okey but I have to admitt, that the main factor still might be HA for the OD-elastic-effect. After the skills became even, the OD training became much slower, although the ID was still high enough.

Anyway, it´s really fun to read the comments here. They are very informative. Thanks for all the nice insights.

(y)