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Potential importance.

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From: Jason

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213427.37 in reply to 213427.35
Date: 4/22/2012 10:03:29 PM
Arizona Desert Storm
III.3
Overall Posts Rated:
11181118
I think you ought to go back and reread exactly what hrudey is talking about when discussing training star potential players


I have read exactly what he said...and he's insistent on digging his feet in regarding the benefit, value, and intelligence regarding training Star potential players....Not many high level managers in this country that would reccomend such a strategy.



I think there are three points that are important to consider in this discussion, that I haven't seen brought up thus far. First is the initial cost of the trainee. Sure, when you're a team with a 16400 seat arena,


This isn't about me and what I am capable of doing. This is about not giving blanket statements that doing something is a good idea, so that a new owner reads and buys into it. Again, there are instances that training a Star potential, or any potential player can be of benefit...but each owner should make sure of that ahead of time.

and now you say the only smart move is to buy MVP+ potential for trainees? Seems unrealistic to me. Though maybe one can get "lucky" with their player transfers and accumulate sufficient money to do so. *snickers*


Perhaps you should go back and reread what I said...I was merely showing my popgression in my thinking concerning trainees...I never said, or implied that brand new owners should set the same standard I have for my team right now, and only train MVP or better.

Really, if I were starting a team now, with what I know, I'd buy 19 year old allstar and p allstar players who have excellent starting skill distributions. These kind of guys can be had for 10K and less at the start of a new season. Trained single position for 3 seasons, as you spend 1-2 in D5 and then in D4, and you'll have some quality starters/role players/backups for your team (accruing similar 'play now, pay later' value). As they cap out, sell some and turn that into better quality trainees. Or mix two guys like that with one 18 year old higher potential guy (superstar is a good place to start).


I agree with this, and think this is a great strategy for newer owners. Allstar is the bare minimum, but even with Allstar you can develop quality players that can last with your teaam for a while, and can stay with your team if you want as a quality backup as one promotes through the ranks, or as you said, will provide significant value.

Lastly, let's remember that there's a learning curve to training and creating useful builds in BB. A new trainer is going to go through the usual mistakes and errors that we all go through. .


Very true, this is why i suggested getting teamed up with a mentor. I was fortunate enough to enough have some of the best players in the game mentor me early in my career....and has greatly contributed to my success.

From: GM-hrudey

This Post:
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213427.38 in reply to 213427.37
Date: 4/22/2012 10:12:13 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
32293229
This isn't about me and what I am capable of doing. This is about not giving blanket statements that doing something is a good idea, so that a new owner reads and buys into it. Again, there are instances that training a Star potential, or any potential player can be of benefit...but each owner should make sure of that ahead of time.


Which part of :
Star potental is a complete waste of time to train.


isn't a blanket statement?

From: Jason

This Post:
00
213427.39 in reply to 213427.38
Date: 4/22/2012 10:17:04 PM
Arizona Desert Storm
III.3
Overall Posts Rated:
11181118
This isn't about me and what I am capable of doing. This is about not giving blanket statements that doing something is a good idea, so that a new owner reads and buys into it. Again, there are instances that training a Star potential, or any potential player can be of benefit...but each owner should make sure of that ahead of time.


Which part of :
Star potental is a complete waste of time to train.


isn't a blanket statement?


You are right....I did over present my point in response to your original post...that was my bad. I really meant that in relation to a long term strategy...overall, I do believe that training Star Potential or less is a waste of time...but there can be instances where it makes sense.

Last edited by Jason at 4/22/2012 10:18:04 PM

From: GM-hrudey

This Post:
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213427.40 in reply to 213427.39
Date: 4/22/2012 10:29:17 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
32293229
This isn't about me and what I am capable of doing. This is about not giving blanket statements that doing something is a good idea, so that a new owner reads and buys into it. Again, there are instances that training a Star potential, or any potential player can be of benefit...but each owner should make sure of that ahead of time.


Which part of :
Star potental is a complete waste of time to train.


isn't a blanket statement?


You are right....I did over present my point in response to your original post...that was my bad. I really meant that in relation to a long term strategy...overall, I do believe that training Star Potential or less is a waste of time...but there can be instances where it makes sense.


No problem. It's definitely a good discussion to have, and I think the biggest takeaway for anyone reading this should be that whatever side of that specific question you end up on, the important thing is to have a solid plan on how you're going to progress in the game.

From: Jason

This Post:
00
213427.41 in reply to 213427.40
Date: 4/22/2012 10:42:13 PM
Arizona Desert Storm
III.3
Overall Posts Rated:
11181118
This isn't about me and what I am capable of doing. This is about not giving blanket statements that doing something is a good idea, so that a new owner reads and buys into it. Again, there are instances that training a Star potential, or any potential player can be of benefit...but each owner should make sure of that ahead of time.


Which part of :
Star potental is a complete waste of time to train.


isn't a blanket statement?


You are right....I did over present my point in response to your original post...that was my bad. I really meant that in relation to a long term strategy...overall, I do believe that training Star Potential or less is a waste of time...but there can be instances where it makes sense.


No problem. It's definitely a good discussion to have, and I think the biggest takeaway for anyone reading this should be that whatever side of that specific question you end up on, the important thing is to have a solid plan on how you're going to progress in the game.


Absolutely....no doubt about that!

From: tough

This Post:
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213427.42 in reply to 213427.41
Date: 4/22/2012 11:18:11 PM
Mountain Eagles
III.1
Overall Posts Rated:
788788
Second Team:
Ric Flair Drippers
Ok, my take on this thread........you would want to train the youngest/best potential guy there is. ALWAYS allstar and up/below 20 years old and younger. And train other great potential guys with the main trainee guy in trash games. I'm doing that right now. Make sure to have a level 3 and up trainer. If you have the cash, get level 4. Makes training a tad bit quicker. With all this put together, you would have a more productive training regimen. Always try and get the best guy possible to help in the future!

3 Time NBBA Champion. Certified Trainer. Mentor. Have any questions? Feel free to shoot me a BB-Mail!
This Post:
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213427.43 in reply to 213427.42
Date: 4/23/2012 1:11:19 AM
Overall Posts Rated:
395395
Div V teams can easily afford a level 4 trainer. I would definitely stick pay the extra upfront cash and salary for a Level 4 trainer as opposed to a level 3 trainer. Level 5 and 6 trainers are much more expensive.

I wish there were pigmen. You get a few of these pigmen walking around I'm looking a whole lot better. Then if somebody wants to fix me up at least they could say, Hey he's no pig-man!
This Post:
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213427.45 in reply to 213427.35
Date: 4/23/2012 8:02:59 AM
Overall Posts Rated:
142142
I had to pay 314k for a star potential trainee, but he's scoring 40 pts so it was worth it

This Post:
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213427.46 in reply to 213427.45
Date: 4/23/2012 9:03:27 AM
Overall Posts Rated:
573573
See, good point. Very good star potential trainees can be very expensive already; boost that potential higher and the transfer price goes up accordingly. Very hard to expect a newer team will have sufficient money to get 2-3 of these trainees, as well as veterans for non-training positions, as keeping arena expansion going in order to maintain revenues to cover rising salaries.

And though I suggested 19 year old allstar and p-allstar guys as initial trainees for a new team, hrudey's approach of using 18 year old star potential guys is a great way to go if you want to two position train them. That extra year of good training ages will help offset the slow down of 2 position training. But in the end, you'll have more pieces to work with. That can allow you to keep some as good players for your team but also to sell some and turn them into higher salary/price veterans as you promote. Frankly, had I not gotten lucky and drafted a great 18 year old, I probably would have continued two position training.

In the end I hope this thread can be useful for new managers who see the constant advice of "only train high potential players" or "only train single position" and wonder whether other approaches are possible. There's a lot of nuance that's lost in those blanket statements. This can let people make a more informed decision.

From: GM-hrudey

This Post:
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213427.47 in reply to 213427.44
Date: 4/23/2012 11:58:57 AM
Overall Posts Rated:
32293229
Perhaps thoug hyou have made some progress and can show how players you trained gained greatly in value such that they were purchased by successful teams, considered for NTs and won you championships. If not thoug hI think its still just a theory taht training star potential is wothwile. It only takes a few minutes gandering at the TL and staff market to see that its unlikely most star trainees are worth teh cost of a trainer even if you cap them.


Roberto Tuozzi Bought Mario Boni numero 1 3/9/2011 $ 10 000
Roberto Tuozzi Sold Voreia Asteria 3/17/2012 $ 450 000

Now, of course, I had to pay his salary for one year, but as he was being trained for most of that year, I was getting performance out of him that was greater than his salary. And with the proceeds of the sale, I purchased a trainee that is more in line with the progression I intend to make over the next year or so (superstar potential). Of course, I was also training four other similar guys at the time (though, one was a one-season $1k to $75k jump, and was later replaced with an allstar).

And as I had to clarify probably before in the other thread and again to GM-Jason here, I am not at all saying that this is the best way for new players to train. I am simply stating that people are way too quick to write it off as entirely worthless. Despite the popular opinion, it is entirely possible to have a long-term plan that actually consists of multiple stages of development, rather than trying to start at the bottom and from the very beginning training three guys that would be useful to you when you get to the top levels of the game.

I suppose by your definition above, of course, I'm not successful, since my trainees aren't considered for NT or U21 play and I've not really won "championships" (I am assuming you mean top level here, not just V and IV). Luckily for me, my plan doesn't begin and end with star potential players - but I am very satisfied with where I am in the game given how long I've been here, and very satisfied indeed that now I am in a position to train higher potential players (out of position, no less!) and maintain where I am while I start to build the big men I will need to progress further, rather than the three-skill donkeys that litter the transfer list. I'm quite pleased to have done this with below average salaries, merchandise usually 50% above league average, and fairly heavy investment in my arena. If I've wasted these four seasons, so be it. ;)

but you could be working on the 19~21 y/os at that level, with higher potential and moving them along the process. If you promote to pay teh higher salary then you can keep them, or just make sure to train secondaries first, and blow up the salary last thing. wiht higher potential is relevant and valuable players.


Actually started with 18yo this year, as the plan called for me to almost cap the guards and then work in my future big men for training in guard positions for 1-2 seasons (and occasionally providing training to the guards via 1v1 or two positioning passing, heresy though that is). Unfortunately my draftee had some pretty poor outside skills other than OD, so it's looking more like two seasons of guard training than one, but I'm holding on pretty comfortably now so I imagine I'll survive.

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