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Have you read my post in its entirety? What was the stamina of the trainee and what was the salary of the trainee and of the guy who subbed in for him? Tactics and depth chart? Something clearly does not look right: I've never seen a trainee going out in and back out in garbage time when being the only player set for the position: either they go out for good or stay in. It's also very suspicious that the guy who replaced him at SG actually started at PF (and the starter was not a guard playing there due to Patient)...

The reason this happens in garbage time more often than in close games is...that the starters in garbage time go to the bench. It means that the best players are on the bench and it's easy to trigger the condition that a bench player is so much better than a stamina depleted trainee.

Check my utopia team. My trainees were 19 and 20 and they were playing alongside 30k-40k guards and they were never subbed. On the other hand, I've had trainees with low stamina in the past and they nearly always got subbed out with 1, 2 or 3 minute to go (when they didn't foul out).

People don't see these things and make conclusions because they don't have full information. If you play a lineup of 9 trainee level players, the trainee is unlikely to be subbed even with low stamina. People in higher divisions are almost never in this situation, but lower division and utopia managers can tell their experience. If you have a large gap in quality against a player on the bench and low stamina it may happen, in fact it's almost guaranteed with some players. I have seen it happen. I had a player in the past who almost never got 48, he was both very foul prone and had 1 stamina (for more than a season which means that towards at some point, he should have reached 1 flat).

So, if your team is imbalanced and:
a) your best players are starting and you have garbage time
b) your best players are backups and you don't have garbage time (less likely situation of course)
you better train some stamina and hope that your guy is not foul prone.

Fouling out and FT substitutions are the only things you can't do anything about (well you can reduce the number of foul outs if you train defense and stamina but that's about it).

Best way to go about these things is getting 6 or more stamina trainees so that when they are young and the skill gap with the best players on the team is very high they won't get subbed out due to stamina depletion and after that they are good enough in their own right.

Last edited by Lemonshine at 8/14/2015 8:04:12 AM

I did read your post #33, but the next on you posted while I was typing mine so I didn't read that one yet.

Phyr said "(I) Strongly disagree with the statement that blowing a team out has no effect on trainees getting 48+ minutes."

You said he was wrong and was spreading misinformatin right? But I showed you (and you agreed) that blowouts can effect 48+ minutes. Not in all situations, but there are situations where it affects 48+ minutes. So Phyr is not wrong, but I agree it is not necessary to avoid blowouts as a whole and blame everything on it.

I applaud your effort to explain how you can ensure blowouts do NOT effect 48+, because there are indeed other factors in play (which we both named in stamina/skill for position relative to the sub). This is important to know so we can avoid misunderstandings because people only tell 1 side of the story.

This is why I address you too, because it's not that blowouts have no effect, it's just 1 factor that combined with others has an effect. Some people say "I never had trouble with blowouts, so they do not affect 48+ minutes". That is wrong, because they only do not affect it in their situation, but it can in others. If we get too stuck on talking in absolute statements, the actual important information (you did great in explaining them) gets lost in between.

Having a backup trainee still counts as training 3 players.

BBs have admitted CPFDC is bugged. If it works for you, you do you bro. My Dutch friend answered the other part of your question.

Last edited by Phyr at 8/14/2015 9:18:30 AM

You said he was wrong and was spreading misinformatin right? But I showed you (and you agreed) that blowouts can effect 48+ minutes. Not in all situations, but there are situations where it affects 48+ minutes. So Phyr is not wrong, but I agree it is not necessary to avoid blowouts as a whole and blame everything on it.

No I don't agree that blowouts affect the substitution of weak trainees and I maintain Phyr is indeed wrong on the subject (while the other american manager was correct). I say this because it's not garbage time or a blow out that causes the trainee to be subbed out. What causes it is the combination of the player having poor skills and stamina and the fact that on the bench there are better options.

You should realise that such statements can't be right because you have the same exact problem in non garbage time games, where a trainee with poor stamina and relatively poor skills gets subbed out for a better player. The issue appears more often in garbage time only because most people start their better players, but it is not caused by garbage time, hence the misinformation. If you play CPfDC, like the other american manager said he did, odds are you figured out what happens when the stronger players are set as backups to begin with and how to take advantage of it.

Now try this if you will: play your better players as backup in a blowout game where you are guaranteed to have garbage time and see if your trainee gets pulled. If you have garbage time then your best players will be in because they are backups. See for yourself if they take the trainee's place then. Note that in CPfDC a significantly better player will play most of the minutes in the first 3 quarters as well regardless of whether he is a starter or a backup, but he is guaranteed to play all garbage time if he was set as backup. The only caveat with CPfDC is that if your backup is so much stronger than the starter, the coach will subvert the orders and start him instead....but the guy set as backup by you in the original depth chart will still play all garbage time (I've had this happening in the same game and the guy I set as backup played 45-46 minutes). The coach subverting the manager's order is a known bug.

So to recap. If you know you will have garbage time and if you know your trainee has poor stamina and skills not good enough to be kept in the game until the end, then there is a logical conclusion isn't there? You make sure the potential substitutes (your top players at the position of training) will be playing somewhere else in garbage time by setting them as backups or will not play at all. Ultimately, as Trainerman said, it's very unlikely you will not be able to predict garbage time (unless your opponent surprisingly throws a game which he should have been able to compete in), so you should be able to prepare for it.

Last edited by Lemonshine at 8/14/2015 9:56:09 AM

I don't agree with your stamina argument. My top two trainees have 2 ST and they have gotten 48+ minutes nearly every week for the last 5 seasons using strictly follow depth chart. The only games they haven't is because of foul outs. Maybe skills play a bigger role in it. Regardless of whether it is skills or stamina, the simple fact is that garbage time creates an opportunity substitutions and your trainee can be subbed out.

I purposely don't use the word "cause" because I know it's not the cause, but it has an effect, since it happens more often/to a bigger extend in garbage time situations. Therefore it affects it.

I'm saying players who get pulled have at least one of 2 requisites and usually both: low stamina and poor skills (compared to the potential substitutes). This is not equal to saying that all players with low stamina and low skills with get subbed out by default. Pace of tactics and game breaks (for example time-outs) presumably have an impact too since they reduce the speed at which stamina is depleted.

This guy (37094308) was not subbed out, he was playing against a 100k+ big man, he was by far my weakest player in the game and has 1 ST.

Ok then what are we arguing about now?

I don't agree with your stamina argument. My top two trainees have 2 ST and they have gotten 48+ minutes nearly every week for the last 5 seasons using strictly follow depth chart. The only games they haven't is because of foul outs. Maybe skills play a bigger role in it. Regardless of whether it is skills or stamina, the simple fact is that garbage time creates an opportunity substitutions and your trainee can be subbed out.

MI had a trainee in Utopia (32699067) who frequently had 47 minutes (or occasionally 46) in non-garbage time games despite all the other stuff being correct, and the guy coming in to replace him was not significantly better by any stretch, but his stamina was just so low (I think he started at atrocious, but I didn't track that in the training planner). I generally also didn't care that much about the lost minute, and his skills seemed to increase just fine.