BuzzerBeater Forums

Who is saying that the players are worse? If you judge by ratings you miss the point. There has been, since it was suggested to do so, an higher focus on secondary skills, that's why the salary reform being done so flatly has pissed so many people off. Finding a big man with 10+ OD was a rarity back in the day and so on. The top players you find nowadays are way better and this happened even though training has been slowed down.

You haven't got the faintest clue mate. Ask Joemaverick how many players with 148 skills, like the one he trained, he's seen recently on the TL. How many with 150+ TSP. I'll give you a hint: these players were there 6-10 seasons ago. When they gave us the TSP count in the TL page, there were multiple players with 150+ TSP. Who trained those? The people who didn't train you spoke of? If you don't want to use ratings to see the declining level in the game, which is perfectly fine evidence to me since it can be checked by everyone, then prove me that you are right with some evidence of your own. Prove right here that the average player teams have is not worse than it was 10 seasons ago. Remember: not opinions, facts and evidence.

Unfortunately for you I already went to Div I with 5 homegrown in Italy, highest users number in the game, and even won a game in Div I with only 5 homegrown player. This happened even though I was kind of a noob back in the day and the first generation was trained poorly and the second could have benefit of a slightly higher potential.

I mean an ENTIRE homegrown team not 2-3 starters and 2-3 backups or scrubs. I meant the whole team and it wasn't that difficult to understand since there is a thread about homegrown teams and that is the requirement.

You won against a team that was tanking or even worse than you, congratulations. So you have nothing to worry: you should be able to easily fight for the playoffs with a homegrown team, so please show us. After all if you think it was that easy when your players were bad and you were a noob, then it should be easier than ever for someone like you.

I asked you two this because it is the key problem nobody wants to admit exists. You can't train an entire D1 team from scratch even today that D1 teams are a lot shittier than in the past. In fact you can't train 8-10 players on your own and be competitive before they start declining, which means if everyone wants trained players past a certain level it would be not enough if those people were training at full speed every week.

Message me when you understand this. You will be a step closer to understand a lot of the problems in this game and we can have a meaningful discussion not based on personal opinions.

Last edited by Lemonshine at 12/20/2016 4:15:09 AM

I've checked my history and on 2015/04/17, 6.5 seasons ago the market was still low.

No please. There were people complaining about inflation on forums when utopia cam out and that was s27. Check the forums, that's when it started. Of course, it got worse over time, but when Utopia came out prices went up considerably in one go.

You seem to think that when the number of trained players has decreased, the number of good players on the TL has immediately decreased. No. Now we have the consequences of the decreasing of the number of trained players, at least 10 seasons later

See first reply. It IS already 10 seasons since prices started to go up and you even claimed here above you don't need that long to cap sub MVP potential players as you capped a 7 potential U21 guys within for seasons, so...10 seasons is plenty to cap an MVP player and even a HoF at 28 should be almost done. See how the 28yo compare to the 34yo to understand that the talent is going off a cliff NOW, 10 seasons after prices started to go up.

Please go on the TL and point out to me a 30yo player who is as good as Marshall was at that age. Remember you trained Marshall in a period when according to you there was no incentive to train and nobody trained...

why are you so obsessed by an entire homegrown team? Why is it so important for you? Since when should that be the standard for everybody? You think BB has failed but BB has never been made for that.

It's obvious. Because if there is no free agency you can only create as many players as users as a whole can train. Therefore this game has been created in such a way that there will always be a shortage of fully trained players. This is the default setting which was implemented when they moved away from the standard potential setting. Nobody understood this underlying flaw because the game had peaked already and with free agency and numbers dropping the supply of trained players outweighed the demand.

Now numbers are stable, free agency was stopped for a while and the problem is obvious as demand far outweighs the supply. And the supply could never hope to catch up to demand in this conditions because of the underlying fact that you simply can't create that many players with the current system. THIS is the problem with the economy right now.

So the choices are: 1) improve the training system (directly and not indirectly with economic measures because the issue is not in the incentives it's in the capability of the system itself) and let people create more players. 2) accept that we are going back to a situation where D1 teams look more like mid-level D2 teams used to look 10 seasons ago, D2 look like mid D3 teams and so on.

I don't know a lot of IRL competitive teams only made by homegrown players, certainly not in NBA. An usual european irl roster is made by some homegrown players, some domestic players and some foreigners. BB prevents to train a full homegrown teams, that would too easy, everybody would do that.

This is wrong on so many levels. The NBA is completely self sustaining and because they can choose from 33,000 college players every year they are able to maintain the level of the league as a whole. This game can't because you can't create a full roster of trained players from the draft unless they are low potential.

Moreover, I've read that the high market is a bad thing for new teams. Again I don't agree. An old team like me was able to stay season after season on top because it was easy for a winning team to renew his roster without losing in competitivity. In many countries you saw the same team champion again and again. Now the market is high, it's impossible, even the old and well-managed teams have to tank some seasons to rebuild a good roster (except in the micronations of course). The consequence is that we see (and we will see) more different champions.

Different champions maybe but all champions are from older teams. With high market, it tooks longer for a newbee to build a team to be champion, it's a fact. For a newbee point of view, inflation in the market is exactly like a rise in the cost of the stadium.

I said that training was slowed down, around S18ish (fact).

Link?

Can you prove me wrong?

I already did. NTs ratings (use bbstats) are down and B3 ratings in the KO phase were down before they streamlined enthusiasm. It's unfortunate that Buzzer-manager doesn't track the average payroll from previous seasons, but I guarantee you that salaries in D1 are down 15%-20% and only a very few percentage points are due to the senseless policy of reducing salary every season, however you can get the feeling yourself.

Rating is pointless to judge both a single match and the trend in the game. (opinion) Now either there is a possibility to simulate a match between a whatever team of 10 season ago with a current one of the same level or we'll never go out of the opinion field (fact).

Meh, I wonder if I really need to explain that ratings reflect the skills of the players. This is a fact. Lower skill and lower GS result in lower ratings. You may be able to win a game with lower TSP on the floor, of course, but the ratings will be worse too. So yeah the ratings reflect some key skills at each position and they have been declining.

Calling ~350k salary vs ~600k win "me vs tanker"... (your deadly wrong opinion)

Ok, I'll bite. Link?

I think it's doable (opinion), though I don't see the point.

The point would be to prove your misguided opinion, stated once again, that it's doable. At least Joemaverick, a manager with more accolades that you or me, has the common sense to admit che è impossibile.

As many times stated by BBs, by design the point of the game is to mix training and market (fact).

Sure but someone failed to realise that either there cannot be enough trained players for everyone or teams will never be as good (on average) as 10 seasons ago.

They still haven't reached a complete balance, but we are fluctuating around the balance point (opinion).

Until someone proves that you can win a promotion to D1 in a medium to large nation without resorting to the market it means that someone in this game will train for those who do. So there are users who by the way the system is designed must have untrained players, scrubs etc. You are relying on these people to train players for other users like you and me (well more you than me) who are sitting in D1. It's like a Ponzi scheme which was supported by 2 things:
1) People having farm teams (this is cheating) which were used to train the players, mostly for the NTs, their main team could not produce
2) Numbers falling combined with free agency which was taking trained players in teams going bot (including the aforementioned farms) and putting them on the market
Now both things don't happen anymore, not on the same scale they used to, and ooops player quality is dropping, prices are rising etc etc

The balance point you talk about is D1 teams playing with what would have been a D2 teams in season 25. This is the equilibrium point, which you should acknowledge looking at the state of your own league, where it's highly likely salaries went down like everywhere else.


Last edited by Lemonshine at 12/20/2016 11:31:46 AM

See first reply. Maybe it's already 10 seasons since the prices started to go up, but it's not 10 seasons since the % of managers who train players started to go up. Maybe managers only realized now that training is the best way to improve his team when the market is high.

That's your opinion, but seeing as you said that the majority was not training any player even back then I don't think it's a very valid opinion.

Some of the staff (GMs) when prices went up said that people had to wait for Utopia trained players to come through. So, where are those players after 10 seasons? Oh yeah, they forgot that each Utopia team could only train 3 maybe 6 players (if they were low potential), so Utopia trained players were never going to affect prices (downwards) in any meaningful way.

You say very few managers trained in the past, yet players were better. You say Darkonza is special in some way specifically because he doesn't train and that's why he may never need to rebuild while he stays at the top of one of the hardest league in BB (a puzzling opinion considering the rest you've said).

Let me ask you this: when do you think 'enough' people will be training? Are enough people training today? And what is enough? 80%x3 players at all times, 90%, 100%?

Now the market is high, and that everybody is aware of it, the % of managers who trains will increase a lot. And I predict that in 10 seasons, without changing the training, there will be too many players on the TL.

I disagree. You have to start giving numbers and show us examples, because this is just mind-blowing. Even if you were able to prove that the majority of users don't train, then it would not change the fact that even if 100% of users trained at full speed 3 players we would still be short players of the average quality we became used to, which has been my point all along, my 'obsession' as you described it.

It's your opinion, not a fact. I gave you another reason which explains the current situation but you don't accept it. I agree that without the free agency the number of players has decreased, but they were bad players. The good ones are still free agent. My opinion is that my explanation of the current high market is better than yours.

Yes it is my opinion and I provided an extremely logical explanation for it. I'm saying that even if every single user in the game was training it wouldn't be enough. What is you explanation for the high market again? If the number of 'good players' (remember that you complained you couldn't find guards with your not-so-strict criteria in other threads not too long ago) hasn't decreased why is their price going up with a shrinking user base?

You say I'm wrong but you don't prove anything. If I look at an european roster, I'm right, there's no competitive team (in Euroleague for example) made by only homegrown players. NBA doesn't work as BB.

Again, I proved you that the NBA sustains itself through the draft and free agency rules on undrafted players and since we also have a draft this is exactly the the same model except we have 18,000 teams and the NBA has 30. Euro teams have their own transfer rules about how to acquire new talent, but they have a way to keep the average level of the rosters stable. The average BB team must to raise 8-10 players by training, if they don't then we don't have enough players. This is the way we keep the level constant in this game unless there are contingent situations like an exodus+free agency, it's as simple as that.

Last edited by Lemonshine at 12/20/2016 12:22:36 PM