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Comments on the mid-season team consolidation plan

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This Post:
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314977.4 in reply to 314977.1
Date: 6/6/2022 9:28:18 AM
Isca Centurions
EBBL
Overall Posts Rated:
382382
Second Team:
Dartmoor Pumas
I think overall it's probably a good change as I suspect most users would prefer to play in human leagues. It also makes a lot more sense to me now that I understand new teams will be grouped together in "newbie leagues" rather than spread out amongst bots.

That said, I do agree with you on the issues this causes. Instead of filling up a league, perhaps get to 12 human teams and leave a few bots in each league? It will still be an active league, but it will give every team the opportunity to boost their fan survey with a few wins each season and slightly reduce the number of drafts that are going to be lost.

From: testudo

This Post:
00
314977.5 in reply to 314977.3
Date: 6/6/2022 9:29:32 AM
Isca Centurions
EBBL
Overall Posts Rated:
382382
Second Team:
Dartmoor Pumas
Wouldnt they all get promoted after debotification anyway?
On the other hand a big part of those would miss out on the PO-Winner bonus


They willl get the bonus.

3. To offset possible losses of income, we will match the promotion awards for all promoted teams - no matter whether they are playoff winners or just promoted due to available empty slots!

This Post:
00
314977.6 in reply to 314977.4
Date: 6/6/2022 9:50:19 AM
Nittany Lions
II.1
Overall Posts Rated:
6262
Second Team:
Crystalline Cohomology
I agree with you that the change of league formation might be a good one in the long term. However, it should be announced earlier and give the managers time to react to the change. It might be acceptable for some other changes, such as the BBM, to have a shorter notice. But for this one, the loss could go up to ~1 million for some managers, and more communications should be done beforehand.

Thank you for your input on the rookie issues. I feel that there will still be a big drop in the depth pool of rookies in that way, but I would like to hear about all possibilities.

This Post:
00
314977.7 in reply to 314977.1
Date: 6/6/2022 9:56:18 AM
Nittany Lions
II.1
Overall Posts Rated:
6262
Second Team:
Crystalline Cohomology
Another question we raised in our forum was:


4. Fresh and newly signed up teams will be placed in leagues populated only by bots or other such teams - to make sure they don't get overwhelmed right off the bat. We consider all teams 1 season or younger "fresh"


Is it something like: Older users fill in human-occupied leagues (e.g. III.1-III.3), while the fresh teams go to newbie-and-bot leagues (e.g. III.4-III.16)? Where do the new teams go if they are good enough to grab their championship? If they still go to a higher league, are they going to suppress the promotion slots of the former?

This Post:
00
314977.8 in reply to 314977.7
Date: 6/6/2022 10:18:16 AM
Isca Centurions
EBBL
Overall Posts Rated:
382382
Second Team:
Dartmoor Pumas
Another question we raised in our forum was:


4. Fresh and newly signed up teams will be placed in leagues populated only by bots or other such teams - to make sure they don't get overwhelmed right off the bat. We consider all teams 1 season or younger "fresh"


Is it something like: Older users fill in human-occupied leagues (e.g. III.1-III.3), while the fresh teams go to newbie-and-bot leagues (e.g. III.4-III.16)? Where do the new teams go if they are good enough to grab their championship? If they still go to a higher league, are they going to suppress the promotion slots of the former?


I read a conversation on Discord which suggested it would work as you describe. Let's say you get 30 new teams in a season, then III.4 and III.5 would be mostly filled with new teams, III.6+ would be totally empty.

That's another good point about the teams in these "newbie" leagues promoting. It's probably fine for the play-off winners to go up, there will only be one in each league and they'll likely have invested a bit in their team if they managed to win the league. But the newbie play-off teams who don't auto-promote may have a better record than the human leagues (as they'll have some bots) so they could go up via bot promotion instead of long-term managers in III.1-III.3. Which could be an issue.

Last edited by testudo at 6/6/2022 10:18:40 AM

This Post:
00
314977.9 in reply to 314977.8
Date: 6/6/2022 10:47:50 AM
Nittany Lions
II.1
Overall Posts Rated:
6262
Second Team:
Crystalline Cohomology
I agree with you. If the "newbies" league is following the same rules on promotion-by-record, it might be unfair to the seasoned teams in the bottom league.

Another issue I can think of which does not happen in the current Utopia leagues is the shifting of "newbie" leagues. After one season, the new teams will graduate from being "newbies" if they are not promoted. How will they be merged into the old leagues? Will the old teams be assigned to a random league every season together with the new teams?

This Post:
00
314977.10 in reply to 314977.9
Date: 6/6/2022 3:53:58 PM
Aetos Anogeion B.C.
A1
Overall Posts Rated:
420420
Second Team:
Aetos Anogeion Int.
The rookie point is an important one.

Having 1-2 human coaches in each league (that get taught how to draft) increases the probabilities to get the good draftees in good hands.

Would anything change in the way the good draftees get distributed in the leagues or how they would get released in the market if won by bots?

This Post:
33
314977.11 in reply to 314977.10
Date: 6/6/2022 4:29:11 PM
DarkQueen
II.2
Overall Posts Rated:
219219
Why not auto sell the drafters'bot players at 0 price?
In this mode we don't lose good players or nt prospect...

This Post:
66
314977.12 in reply to 314977.1
Date: 6/7/2022 3:58:08 AM
TrenseRI
III.2
Overall Posts Rated:
36003600
Second Team:
ChiLeaders
- Teams promoted without a championship will not have the extra boost on team support, which can make quite a difference in the ticket income.

We will give the same extra boost on team support, as you call it (it's season ticket holders) for all promoted teams - all promotion effects are going to be the same from now on, no matter how you promote.

- Compared to a bot league, it would be much harder to sustain a good weekly profit in a human-filled team, while still keeping at the top of the league and having the same merchandise bonus. I think this has been justified in the Utopia league.

When playing an opponent, a meaningful part of the attendance is affected by the fans of that opponent - so it makes sense that playing human teams brings a higher attendance (and income) than playing bot teams. This difference, over time, might even grow if we determine that there is indeed a loss of income (on average).

2. The rookie pool will be shrunk, especially for smaller countries.

This is true, but the effect might be overestimated. We might think of a way to offset this, I like the idea of keeping 4-6 bot teams per league.
Currently, in most bot filled leagues, many top talents are lost to bots anyway, so I don't think the difference will be that big. I cannot estimate precisely though, we might need to just wait and see on this one, and apply changes on the fly if the draft pool is severely guttered - something I very much doubt.

3. Important updates like this should be announced at least a season before the rollout.

I agree with this too. There were some factors that made us decide to push this though. Things that may or may not happen in the short term, so we'd rather not elaborate yet.

Is it something like: Older users fill in human-occupied leagues (e.g. III.1-III.3), while the fresh teams go to newbie-and-bot leagues (e.g. III.4-III.16)? Where do the new teams go if they are good enough to grab their championship? If they still go to a higher league, are they going to suppress the promotion slots of the former?

Yes. We are yet to think of a way to fairly give promotion slots priority to older teams. However, I do believe this won't be a big factor - new signups rarely have the strength (and luck! the wins-losses of the bot teams they replaced still remain in the first season affecting rank a lot) to win their leagues right away. Also, there just isn't that many other teams that are fresh but might be able to do so. I might be wrong and there's a variety of situations in different countries, so we might change some things if we see a problem here.
One last thought - we don't want to make it impossible for fresh teams to promote!

Another issue I can think of which does not happen in the current Utopia leagues is the shifting of "newbie" leagues. After one season, the new teams will graduate from being "newbies" if they are not promoted. How will they be merged into the old leagues? Will the old teams be assigned to a random league every season together with the new teams?

The way it's currently done is that only teams occupying the last (highest number) leagues occupied by human teams are rearranged to fill the empty spots of the lower numbered leagues. So there is no total randomization, after the first season, most teams will retain most of their leaguemates after each offseason.
Teams occupying spots on "fresh" leagues, that are no longer fresh themselves, will be moved to a "standard", human occupied league. I will write an addendum to the last newspost to clarify this further.

In all cases where there's something lost, we believe there will be other things gained enough to offset the losses. However, we reserve the right to tinker, of course.

This Post:
33
314977.13 in reply to 314977.11
Date: 6/7/2022 4:06:44 AM
TrenseRI
III.2
Overall Posts Rated:
36003600
Second Team:
ChiLeaders
Why not auto sell the drafters'bot players at 0 price?
In this mode we don't lose good players or nt prospect...

We'll consider this as a valid solution, in case the talent pool reduces a lot. We might not release all draftees this way, maybe a smaller selection (as much as we determine is needed) based equally on skill and a random factor.

This Post:
00
314977.14 in reply to 314977.13
Date: 6/7/2022 4:40:57 AM
DarkQueen
II.2
Overall Posts Rated:
219219
Ty

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