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I’ve been training PGs a lot in the past few seasons. I used to focus more on the big men, but it didn’t take long for me to figure out that it’s much harder to find guards than centers on the TL are a price I could afford, so I just decided I’ll pretty much only train guards, and especially PGs since I could single-position train there. In short, I know about training guards. That being said, here is my observation:

It takes much longer to train a guard than a center (or PF for that matter) since there are more skills involved, and less allowance for weaknesses. A team can play with center with, say, not-so-great IS if that player still has a decent JS and the offense is outside oriented. And really, for a center, the main skills are IS, ID and RB. Poor ratings at other positions (especially HN!) are definitely not good, but aren’t devastating to a lineup. PGs cannon be weak at JS, HN, PA, and OD, and they are deficient players without at least decent JR and DV. And there’s the inside skills, too, which are better if none are atrocious (especially RB!). So to really get any one of a PGs skills to a great level, it often has to come at the cost of another skill. My best guards have all been really well-rounded (I have one player at least proficient at all 6 key skills and another at least prominent at all 6, and another at least respectable at 11 of all 12 skills), yet only one of these well-rounded guards hits wondrous at one particular skill. My only other guard to have a wondrous rating anywhere is deficient elsewhere and it shows when he’s in the lineup. And why is this? Because unlike a center, the guards handle the ball pretty much every possession (I assume), especially the PG. Poor HN or PA in a PG is worse than with a C (though when I’ve started a C at PG, this hasn’t always been proven true…). And I’ve seen what happens when I put a poorer OD in the lineup (it can be really bad if the other team is solid at guard).

So while I can choose to create a passing monster, what I’d have to give up in that player’s training is too much to make him my best lineup option because of the inevitable deficiencies. It takes a lot of effort to really train these guards up, which is why it’s harder to then release these players on the TL, and why there are fewer of guards of comparable skill to the many centers we see on the TL, and the guards are then pricier as a result. And the end product of this hard work in training guards doesn’t typically translate into superstar guards, usually just well-rounded guards or super specialists. There are some exceptional guards out there, but the ones we notice are often the ones who can score 40 points per game (but not many assists), and not the ones who dish out an eye-popping 9 assists per game.

I understand the reasons for PGs not picking up that many assists - the difficulty of training, the quality of a pass not being good enough according to the GE, etc.

Personally I like PGs in basketball - players like Rondo, Nash, Stockton are like having a coach on the floor during offence. It would be nice if there was a way of playing that could replicate the power of the PG in this game and make him the orchestrator on offence - so he needn't score points or even be a great shooter but run the show as a pure PG.

Those PGs who have got far enough to get to around 8 assists or above with 14+ passing in this game have terrible shooting % even with sensational JS, proficient JR and importantly proficient+ experience. There's a few such players on the TL who are averaging 29-40% from the field even when they have big men on their team with over 50% shooting. Such poor decision making at the point? Is there a basketball logic to this?

Check out these two games for some decision making at the point. (23028854) & (23234211)

You can have a good assistman with lvl 9 but the condition is that the rest of your players have lvl 3 or lower, that's the main point. If you've one lvl 15 and two lvl 13 hardly you'll have an high assists number

Those PGs who have got far enough to get to around 8 assists or above with 14+ passing in this game have terrible shooting % even with sensational JS, proficient JR and importantly proficient+ experience. There's a few such players on the TL who are averaging 29-40% from the field even when they have big men on their team with over 50% shooting. Such poor decision making at the point? Is there a basketball logic to this?

you will maybe not miss that much assist when you play another PG without his passing skill, but you will definately miss a lot of points when your PG is a weak passer.
Maybe his effort isn't reflected good in the stats, but in the game i could say you for sure that there are "courtleaders" at the PG spot, and when you are used to european "Assist"(who have higher standards)

maybe another reason would be that those things, ain't happen in a simulation:

"The Jazz guys were pretty open about their liberalities. ... John Stockton averaged 10 assists. Is that legit? It's legit because they entered it. If he's another guy, would he get 10? Probably not.""
...
"though the habit of fudging statistics upward was practically an organizational, if not leaguewide, imperative."
...
"Note that he recorded 50 steals in Vancouver and 29 elsewhere, and that he blocked more than three times as many shots at home as he did on the road. Today, as he calls up the numbers on his computer, Alex laughs. He sounds almost embarrassed. "The blocks," he says, "are atrocious.""

http://deadspin.com/5345287/the-confessions-of-an-nba-sco...

This is also a intresting story:
http://deadspin.com/5336974/how-an-nba-scorekeeper-cooked... - the making of an Assist rekord for Nick van Excel(it is also linked in the previous article)


Last edited by CrazyEye at 8/31/2010 12:40:01 PM

That's a very interesting article. I didn't know it was like that. But guys like Stockton, even if some of their assists were fudged it would still be a small percentage of their total. I have no doubt he'd average close to the 10 mark anyway.

But the point I was trying to make is that master PGs should not be making the kind of poor decisions that they do make in this game. If a high ability PG with proficient experience is going to take so many bad shots that he averages 35% from the field then there's something amiss.

But the point I was trying to make is that master PGs should not be making the kind of poor decisions that they do make in this game. If a high ability PG with proficient experience is going to take so many bad shots that he averages 35% from the field then there's something amiss.

i think that is more a problem of the shooting percentage here, especially when a player shots also some 3 pointer like a PG(+ Guards take more last second shots in my experience)

So 35 isn't really bad, but lot better then 40 is pretty rare for guards in this game and even good big guys just shot 50%. And if nobody else shots much better(or in case of big guys have trouble to get always in position to score), such a shot isn't considered bad.

Seems to be a result of players with low passing skills moreso than a GE problem.

There was a player in my league averaging 11 assists per game on a last place team with phenomenal passing.

So I assume people could have high assists numbers if they have high passing.

Seems to be a result of players with low passing skills moreso than a GE problem.

There was a player in my league averaging 11 assists per game on a last place team with phenomenal passing.

So I assume people could have high assists numbers if they have high passing.

or a question about relation, i could understand when people argue about shooting percentage/assist numbers - and i don't think that the argument is good that you could reach those stats with player who are at a totally different level.

Yeah it is right that 10 Assist is a result of a superior passer, but i think in your case he is close to a double passing value then the opponent OD(and far more then his teammates), and this is probadly the in league comparision of Stockton, Nash and Co. it is more like those players in the third or fourth league.

To be honest it isn't a big problem for me, because passing is worth the training and the money you spend for it(at least for me).

Not sure if it was discussed or not but remember that the number of passing depends not only on the passing-skill and the other players' ability to score or pass. The number of assists also depends also on the full skill-set of the player. Shooting and Driving damage assists number. That means that player will often try to score instead of passing. Example: (5830219). He could have assisted more times if he lacked driving. As the most of his scoring attempts are made with driving and not JS(he lacks it).

So not only simple passing skill has an influence on assists but the all skill-set.

I'd make a list of the factors that influence:
1. The skill set and the player's position.
3.The offensive tactics
2.The ability of the other players to score/assist
4.The defence of the opponent.

That's an ugly example. 36% shooting from a PG with that salary? I don't get it. If he's a good driver why doesn't he try to drive and dish instead? A coach would tell him to make more turnovers if he had to rather than take so many poor shots.

I like PGs, in fact the thing I like most about basketball is how guys like Rondo orchestrate the offence. Seems like if you try to create that type of player here he's going to cause a great deal of annoyance by continually taking bad shots. And he won't make enough assists.

I just did a search on the TL with >sensational passing and <respectable JS,JR and found some woeful shooting nos. There are PGs of a level 16 passing with strong experience shooting 28% for the season. On mid-table teams playing look inside. Clearly the engine isn't kind to PGs.

That's an ugly example. 36% shooting from a PG with that salary?

I wanted to get simply-passing PG, I waited for a long time and I couldn't do it more in order not to loose much in the league. BTW, my PG has
Driving: marvelous 15
Inside Shot: mediocre 5
Strange that he can't score more when he drives..

Clearly the engine isn't kind to PGs.

I see that most of the PGs have too much of driving. I think that is one of the main reasons of ugly shooting.