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I just don't see any desire on the part of the BBs to do anything about training. The last "improvement" which allows out of position training, actually allows us to choose to slow training. If there was to be a speeding up of training, or even just an attempt to balance training where training JR gave the same total training (ignoring outside factors) as one on one, then I'd be as delighted as you.

I just haven't ever seen much point in discussing training as its largely dismissed. (The discussion, not training)

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That's 3 starters, which I play every week in the same position thanks to the current training system. You're welcome.

Now if you have a problem with the current training system because it's literally impossible to raise an entire team of trained players, well you have a point. However, you, like the other self-proclaimed 'joker', are misrepresenting the problem, in a way convenient to you. Marin wants to incentivise training, make it 'king' as you say. Unfortunately training can't build you a team. So we have a bit of a problem.



Last edited by Lemonshine at 3/23/2016 6:18:43 PM

if market is like that is because the number of users is decreased and with him the number of users so train....

Now, this is also incorrect like many other things in this thread.

If the same percentage of people train today as they were training 15 seasons ago, there should be no difference. Say we all produce on average 2 players every 5 seasons then we have 6 homegrown players and we need to find another 2-6 extra players somewhere else or use untrained players. The extra players can only come from teams who are no longer in the game.

However it's not a problem of how many users you have, but how many trained player each team can produce and how many teams quit as a percentage of the total.

When you drop the size of the userbase from 60k to 30k as fast as it did, and dump out the orphaned talent into the player pool, that will naturally boost the amount of players available and therefore reduce the prices.

Oh poor hrudey, it seems like sometimes then Free Agency has a bit more than a marginal effect. So hrudey has it both ways:
1) when it's convenient to hrudey Free Agency has 'very little' impact
2) when it's convenient to hrudey Free Agency does 'naturally boost' the amount of players and does have an effect
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Ah the irony!

the time spent not training has essentially removed an entire generation of players from the market at many levels.

You know that could be actually believable if you stated that the people who quit the game actually were training much more than those who are still here. A claim impossible to verify, but at least it would make some sense.

Are we refusing to admit that it's quite literally impossible to train enough players for everyone, something that even BB-Ryan has acknowledged? It should be obvious to anyone that this is the case, since it's impossible to build a fully trained homegrown team if you need 5 or more seasons (this is much less than 8+ potential players) to fully train a player and you can simultaneously train 3 players at most. The system is sustainable on 2 principles: people quitting leave trained players behind and, more importantly, a number of teams actually play the game with untrained or badly/partially trained players. In the current environment the untrained and badly/partially trained players will inevitably grow at every level.

The problem is supply and demand when tons of players got dumped on the TL years ago, and the problem is supply and demand now when there are fewer players of a high end stature.

Dumped...sometimes I wonder if they magically appeared on the TL.

Unfortunately, you are looking at the problem in a very limited way. The real problem is how many trained players on average each team can create at maximum efficiency before they lose enough skills to become fairly useless...

Last edited by Lemonshine at 3/23/2016 6:15:07 PM

Your points are definitely valid, especially on the lack of talent being produced but I don't think the answer is necessarily speeding up training.

I would end the restrictions on FAs and increase the no. of high level trainers. At least make people pay for their improved training.

Also you could be a bit less confrontational, you're starting to sound like some of the more erratic members of the community.

When you drop the size of the userbase from 60k to 30k as fast as it did, and dump out the orphaned talent into the player pool, that will naturally boost the amount of players available and therefore reduce the prices.

Oh poor hrudey, it seems like sometimes then Free Agency has a bit more than a marginal effect. So hrudey has it both ways:
1) when it's convenient to hrudey Free Agency has 'very little' impact
2) when it's convenient to hrudey Free Agency does 'naturally boost' the amount of players and does have an effect

Ah the irony!

Yes, if we were dropping from 20k to 10k in the next season or two and dropped everyone into FA, yes, that would have a significant effect. Congratulations! You made me admit that something I have said isn't something I'd categorically say in every conceivable scenario. I apologize for daring to not consider the maintenance of an opinion that utterly disregards anything other than blind opinion.

the time spent not training has essentially removed an entire generation of players from the market at many levels.

You know that could be actually believable if you stated that the people who quit the game actually were training much more than those who are still here. A claim impossible to verify, but at least it would make some sense.

Are we refusing to admit that it's quite literally impossible to train enough players for everyone, something that even BB-Ryan has acknowledged? It should be obvious to anyone that this is the case, since it's impossible to build a fully trained homegrown team if you need 5 or more seasons (this is much less than 8+ potential players) to fully train a player and you can simultaneously train 3 players at most. The system is sustainable on 2 principles: people quitting leave trained players behind and, more importantly, a number of teams actually play the game with untrained or badly/partially trained players. In the current environment the untrained and badly/partially trained players will inevitably grow at every level.

Theoretically, if every team were training at pretty much full tilt, there would likely be enough excess players trained for sale to make some portions of the market be fulfilled, and possibly some even saturated. Theoretically, you can spend seven seasons training three guards, seven seasons training three bigs, and you've got a season to train FT before skill drops on the first batch of guards and the cycle starts again -- of course, if you can shave a couple of seasons off of the training time and maybe overlap some (finish guards and start bigs at the same time with 1v1, etc), you can come closer.

But that's all theoretical - and frankly I think you are well aware that I've said some sort of boost in training speed would be beneficial. In terms of the 'people who quit were training more' - I don't have that stat, but I think it's a very good supposition that before the deflationary time, a much higher percentage of people were training than were, say, the season before Utopia started up.

I apologize for daring to not consider the maintenance of an opinion that utterly disregards anything other than blind opinion.

Nah you should apologise for the hypocrisy in your statements, mate. You can't have it both ways, I think you realise it too. So either FA has always been a minor part of the TL as you claimed on the back of what Marin said or it wasn't. It cannot be both at the same time and you (and Marin) will need to decide which narrative you prefer to carry forward.

But that's all theoretical

Nope, it quite isn't. You effectively acknowledge (obviously) that on average we can train 6 players each. That is with max efficiency, which is debatable anyway, because a lot of people don't train 3 players full speed, but let's assume that's correct.

You have ranted here and elsewhere that we should train more in order to build the players that are not there. Now you say we can train 6 players each at best. So exactly what are we going to do with 6 trained players each when we need 8-12?

Can't you see that there is a fundamental problem if irrespective of how many people train we can't all have fully trained teams? The system currently relies on tanking teams and teams in the lowest leagues training players without competing, as these teams employ a lot of untrained meatballs...

That is, unless you realise, as BB-Ryan already acknowledged, that the past and current average player skill level is going to drop when you go from a FA system where ONLY trained players were saved to a system where MOSTLY untrained players are saved.

time ago people not play training game shape all season like is happened to not long time ago, the % of user training now and before is been quite different... i think

Ok so you are saying that on average today each team trains more players than in the past (when a lot of people trained GS).

So I ask you, if this is true, how can we have a shortage of players today, 8 seasons after Utopia started and several seasons after the numbers fell below 25k? It makes no sense whatsoever, unless something is fundamentally flawed with the system and actually Free Agency had a significant impact in providing additional players for everyone when numbers were falling.