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You really got me with [thisisajoke][thiswasajoke] thing. :)

I know it is a coin flip and you won't catch me again.

And I repeat next thing. HCA isn't so huge advantage as You think

So let me ask you this since you seem to be saying this repeatedly. Would you have TIE'd every game in the WC if you did not have HCA?

i know what you mean. But that goes for everything.

For example: for some weird reason, in Season 14 Italy hadn't made the worlds cup. They went in consolation tourney, and ofcourse, they won it. Italy, allong with France, Spain and Poland, are the european top nations. Yet Italy had HCA during the european campaign and they slaughtered everyone too (all other teams knew that they were going for the silver in the european champ in season 15)

If you going to argue about the world cup, then you might as well argue about the nation preliminaries and the nations championships aswell.

It was only the second time that Poland got to the World Cups...

Poland has greatly improved over the past few seasons. The current system gives HCA to a nation that has never hosted the WC before. It was Polands second participation. The system tries to chose a fair way to determine who gets HCA, and up till now, it always was pretty fair. The system can't forsee such a major improvement that the Polish Nt made over the past few seasons.

So as far as i'm concerned, their is nothing wrong with the current system during the groupfases.

I'd only like to ask that HCA would be removed when it comes to the semi finale stage of all tournaments. Cause their, if the host is still taking part in the game, then it will become a considerable advantage.

As it stands now, for the worlds, HCA goes to a team (who's possibly in the repechage) that rarely makes the worlds, so it gives the weaker teams a chance to make it to the worlds...

So as it stands now, the system is fine. It just needs to be tweaked so that HCA in semi's and finale stages of the NT competition gets taken away.

Revo

Last edited by AthrunZala at 7/31/2011 8:23:45 AM

If i don't remember wrong, when China hosted the WC, they were the top1 in the NT rankings.

If there is HCA during all the tournament, i don't see any reason to remove it on SF or F...

The best NT's can lose with HCA.

I didn't play TIE in every game...
I think more interesting question is which effort will be used by other teams if Poland had no HCA...
I'm sure few other teams had chance to win with Poland but they didn't take risk. Meanwhile Chile used more effort and more risk and therefore they went to final. As I said NT Manager of Chile made correct calculation and he chose better strategy. Few other managers made few mistakes.
Without HCA probably we would play for bronze and it would be our strategy. My choices would be little different (and of course everything would depend on previous results). And if we would go to semi, then we would try to win next match, maybe two. And we should have some chance, it's game. But if we wouldn't finish in top-4 I would send congratulations for all medalists (in fact I did it anyway) and I would try to work harder and harder to build stronger NT for future.
Chile in group match in WC and Spain in European Championships (twice!) proved, that HCA isn't invincible. And I saw few other epic fails by teams with HCA (for example Russia in last EC U21). HCA is only one of factors, and it isn't the most important.
In WC in 6th season, with HCA USA finished with bronze medal. In next WC (season 8) without HCA USA finished... 3rd too ;-) So we can see that without HCA the same result is possible as with HCA ;-)

If i don't remember wrong, when China hosted the WC, they were the top1 in the NT rankings.

If there is HCA during all the tournament, i don't see any reason to remove it on SF or F...

The best NT's can lose with HCA.

For the best NT, to lose on their HCA, their shape has to be alot worse than their opponent...

we're talking about 2 teams with the same ammount of Enthousiasme. If the best team then has HCA, it's a 99% certainty that they'll win the game (the 1% being when the lesser team has a much better gameshape, but how often does that happen?)

I didn't play TIE in every game...
I think more interesting question is which effort will be used by other teams if Poland had no HCA...
I'm sure few other teams had chance to win with Poland but they didn't take risk. Meanwhile Chile used more effort and more risk and therefore they went to final. As I said NT Manager of Chile made correct calculation and he chose better strategy. Few other managers made few mistakes.
Without HCA probably we would play for bronze and it would be our strategy. My choices would be little different (and of course everything would depend on previous results). And if we would go to semi, then we would try to win next match, maybe two. And we should have some chance, it's game. But if we wouldn't finish in top-4 I would send congratulations for all medalists (in fact I did it anyway) and I would try to work harder and harder to build stronger NT for future.
Chile in group match in WC and Spain in European Championships (twice!) proved, that HCA isn't invincible. And I saw few other epic fails by teams with HCA (for example Russia in last EC U21). HCA is only one of factors, and it isn't the most important.
In WC in 6th season, with HCA USA finished with bronze medal. In next WC (season 8) without HCA USA finished... 3rd too ;-) So we can see that without HCA the same result is possible as with HCA ;-)

The Polish NT got lucky with the HCA. But that doesn't take away that Poland deserved the title. The efforts put into their players, the fact that their top players kept on improving. If you can accomplish that as a nation, then you deserve to be rewarded. Nothing more nothing less.

You did a good job coaching the Polish NT. The hard part comes now: you'll need to defend that title and prove it was no fluke ( i don't believe it to be a fluke, but some claim that you got that far only because of the HCA, which i find a little exagerated).

as i said before: remove the HCA for Semi finales and Finales, but keep all the rest as it is. That way, the strongest nations in the semi-finals and finales will win it, and nobody will be able to argue about it.

LA-Revo

@ BB, I think you're being coy with the "I didn't TIE every game". So you didn't TIE every game leading up to the semi's?

The argument was never "Poland cheated" or anything of that nature. It was that HCA needs to be done away with or given to teams outside of the top 10 in the world. It was not directed towads Poland either. YOU and others took offense to it and got defensive. Usually people do that when they feel attacked, or in this case assume people are taking their accomplishment away from them when they are not. If you were in Chile's shoes I would like to see your take on this thread.

as i said before: remove the HCA for Semi finales and Finales, but keep all the rest as it is. That way, the strongest nations in the semi-finals and finales will win it, and nobody will be able to argue about it.

Why would this solve ANYTHING? It's not about the HCA in the semi's and finals as much as it IS about the enthusiasm advantage built up because of the ability to TIE more games and still get to the semi's. 14 enth. is much different than 7 if without HCA carrying into the semis. What you suggest solves absolutely nothing.

@ BB, I think you're being coy with the "I didn't TIE every game". So you didn't TIE every game leading up to the semi's?

The argument was never "Poland cheated" or anything of that nature. It was that HCA needs to be done away with or given to teams outside of the top 10 in the world. It was not directed towads Poland either. YOU and others took offense to it and got defensive. Usually people do that when they feel attacked, or in this case assume people are taking their accomplishment away from them when they are not. If you were in Chile's shoes I would like to see your take on this thread.

as i said before: remove the HCA for Semi finales and Finales, but keep all the rest as it is. That way, the strongest nations in the semi-finals and finales will win it, and nobody will be able to argue about it.

Why would this solve ANYTHING? It's not about the HCA in the semi's and finals as much as it IS about the enthusiasm advantage built up because of the ability to TIE more games and still get to the semi's. 14 enth. is much different than 7 if without HCA carrying into the semis. What you suggest solves absolutely nothing.

You don't have to solve nothing, when there isn't a problem.

Poland deserved the title even if they played with HCA. Just take a look on their matchs;

Apart from Al Maghrib, the only team that put more effort against him was Chile. Result? Chile won them.

In the groups;

USA lost just by 9(against Poland)

Against Spain they won just by 7.


If USA had a big lose on the SF, it's because they dind't manage their own enthusiasm to arrive to the SF in good conditions.

(And look that Poland did a mistake, they had to play normal against USA on SF's, to keep their enthusiasm high).


HCA doesn't give you the win, and if not take a look on Itally or China they both lost their final having HCA(season 15,11)

It would be a bad decision to remove the HCA for the SF and for the final, this teams make the difference during the previous stages.



Last edited by Marot at 7/31/2011 3:16:13 PM

If USA had a big lose on the SF, it's because they dind't manage their own enthusiasm to arrive to the SF in good conditions.

This proves my point. We barely made the semifinals because we had to use enthusiasm to get there. In fact it took a win by someone else on the last day for us to make it. Poland reached the semifinals with tons of enthusiasm because they DIDN'T have to use enthusiasm to get there.

Again, this is not a US vs. Poland argument. Why is everyone taking it there? This is not a "Poland doesn't deserve the title" argument. EVERY US poster has made sure to say that Poland is a world class team with a world class program.

The problem is that when a top 10 team has HCA it skews everything because the roster differences are not that great...but HCA gives a HUGE advantage. Poland navigated PERFECTLY and made no mistakes along the way. First class tournament. However when HCA creates two blowouts in the SF and Final then there is a fault in it.

@ BB, I think you're being coy with the "I didn't TIE every game". So you didn't TIE every game leading up to the semi's?

Negative, I didn't TIEd every game before semifinals.

It was that HCA needs to be done away with or given to teams outside of the top 10 in the world.

When cadency started Poland was 32th in world ranking...

This proves my point. We barely made the semifinals because we had to use enthusiasm to get there. In fact it took a win by someone else on the last day for us to make it. Poland reached the semifinals with tons of enthusiasm because they DIDN'T have to use enthusiasm to get there.

Sometimes You must use more enthusiasm and sometimes not. In European Championships Poland had very very very bad schedule. We were CTed 5 times. Afaik we went to semifinal with enthusiasm by 7-8 levels less than Italy ;-) And Italy had HCA of course. So we had the same situation in EC as USA in WC.
But I never depreciated Italy's victory, I sent congratulations and I was happy Poland won first medal.

In Championships HCA for Poland didn't change final standing of USA ;-) Without Poland with HCA in this tournament USA would finish 3rd anyway. You would lose with Chile and I think You wouldn't able to beat all other european teams (Italy and Spain in row). So HCA for Poland wasn't problem for You.
I can say more, You reached semis thanks Poland ;-) Because Spain decided to gain enthusiasm in last round to increase chance to fight with Poland in semi ;-)
It was better for USA that Poland had HCA. Please try to imagine what would happen if Marocco had HCA... Last quarter would be boring because of garbage time...

If we talk about advantages please note Grubbs was drafted in 2nd season when Poland didn't exist in BB ;-) So therefore he could have better skills and experience. Is it fair advantage? ;-)
He is trained in club which isn't normal club - history of this club is gray. Hmmm... when I'm looking for new home for polish player I must find normal club. When this club goes to bankrupt I must find new one. Is it fair advantage? ;-)
Our staff must make hard work to recognize how to train players to be as good as possible. Owner of Grubbs knows it... Is it fair advantage? ;-)

Because grubbs did so much this season.

Again you try to make it a US vs. Poland thing. I do not understand why? I NEVER thought we win the tournament regardless of where it is. That has NEVER been the argument of anyone, but I guess your ignorance keeps making you bring this up to hide the real issue. You are so prideful you can not admit it.

I'm done. I came into this thread with respect for you, I leave with very little thanks to your comments.