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(couldn't answer sooner, sorry)

Rwystyrk is sometimes a bit hotheaded, not the most polite poster (some may be lost in tranlsation when one or more parts of debate are not native speakers) and says things how they are, how he sees them and is mostly spot on. Other than that having him is one of the greatest things which happened to our community. Not just his knowledge and achievements which speaks volume but he has been a workhorse for u21 and not NT. I would recommend to look up who he is in BB before immediately discarding what he says.

I see refusing any kind of deals provided by rules as sing of incompetence. It basicallly means that Jokehim (and others who do that) is not comfotable compete with others on the same basis so he makes an excuse based on morale. That's quite ok to do with a club (although it affects others in aleague, but many things do, and everybody is allowed to play any way he/she wants) but non-excusable in NT/U21 where he has a responsiblity for work of not just himself but work of whole swedish community (and maybe few foreign owners of swedish players). Putting one's beliefs over succes of a NT is quite selfish, and unaccceptable. You either do the best within rules nto to disrescpect hard work of others or you don't candidate. Saying that results don't matter is quitting and sign of a loser. You do what you can for succes of national team you lead and succes that's mainly the results while not tarnishing your NT reputation by breaking deals which would put your NT in unfavourable position longterm (which is the only thing I could see legitimate to be pissed off on somebody and calling them unsportmanslike).

The difference between Czech republic and Sweden in this game is less than 300 managers (and we had far fewer when current NT was builded). That's not so big margin (although there smaller you are less you can do with a bad year draft crop u21wise) the real difference is longterm plan, dedication and not hiding from challenges. Jokehim's u21 is among lowest seeded european teams, rwystyrk's NT is reigning continetal champion. I rest my case, it's not my business how you want your NT to play. Just respect other approaches to the game and don't be xenophobic to them Jokehim way.

We respect how you guys play the game, its you who doesnt respect us for playing the game we want. Do you really think we would elect Jokehim 6 times if we disagree with how he runs the team?
And i know who your NT-manager is, that still doesnt give him right to come here and complain and try to make Jokehim look bad. Perhaps he is your little king and can make whatever he wants in Chech, but he is only a human... and kinda rude :|

Just as you are free to make and break deals, we are free to choose not to make deals... btw: How the heck can you even say its more unsportsmanlike to break deals than keeping them? Sure, you who asked was perhaps hurt, but all deals have loosers, and the looser in a TIE-TIE-deal is the 3rd country who gets an ent-disadvantage cause they played normal in a simular game. Breaking a deal is just as much of a "crime" as rigging a game so a 3rd party loose. Or does your morale say against that?

If we should adapt your philosophy, always accept and play TIE-deals, then we could just remove the whole ent-thing and play normal games.



I guess you do realize that without deals the game would be more fair, since then all would compete at the same terms and now its pretty unfair.
Im also guessing you wanna answer like "everone can make a deal" and thats excactly my point. If everyone can make them... why not play without them at all. Then you dont have to mail your opponent before every single game asking for a TIE.

The result would ofcourse be that it would give the descision about TIE/Norm/CT to the NT-coach instead of the paperwork. If you dont think about how we could ensure no deals blablabla... wouldnt a no-deal agreement make the games more interesting and make use of the skill of your NT-coach more?
Instead of, from min 1, you know its TIE-TIE... you would wanna see the match and see if your TIE will pay off or your opponent tricked you and played normal cause he thinks he can steal a win!

Rwystyrk shouldn't go here and post what he posted (btw he already appologized) but without Jokehim going on our board crying and calling us out there wouldn't be any foregoing debate. I believe a debate should be handled in a thread where it starts (or could be moved somewhere else if it is offtopic and IDs involved are willing to continue there) but it shouldn't be at any cost expanded to other threads. That's to me worse than saying "you are doing it wrong" nontactful way.

Ok, let's make it clear - by breking a deal I mean a situation when someone reaches an agreement woth the other side (no matter who made the initial contact/offer) and do something else, typicali not playing a TIE despite a TIe-TIE agreement. If you thing that's more honourable than keeping promise, then you are a hypocrite.
The game is designed as it is. It is not like every game is played with an agreement but many times that's the smart way to do so. It still requires a consent from the other side - a plain no is ok and it can be justifiable. Calling someone disgusting is not. Refusing all offers on principle is sabotaging a team. Third parties can do the same in their schedules and if the game award willing and smart what's the problem with that?! The unfair aspect is the schedule which makes weaker teams willing to go CT at certain times (quality of decision making influences that but the point is still the same) leaving the other side little to do something against it.

I don't really know why do you bring up breking agreements the way it suggest czech NT does that. That's very poor from you and shows real moral integrity (or better a parody of that) behind that no agreement regime.

I can't believe my eyes that you would like to ban agreements while keeping enthusiasm systems at the same time. do you realize there is an outer world beyong BB and people comunicating other ways than BB-Mails too? Those who would want to make agreements regardless would just move there. That's why agreements are part of the game - they have to be as long as enthusiasm system is present. I personylla don't care whether enthusiasm is included or not, one of the advantages is that ability to manage it right way is another tactic option giving underdogs a way to close the gap here and there.

You never know for sure that it's TIE-TIE and that's important and vital point of that. You have to risk to some extent without that it would be way to predictable. And not just because it's not always to best option to play TIE, although many times it is (even when expecting a certain loss - scores often matters too).

Last edited by docend24 at 11/15/2011 2:10:40 PM

Vilken fånig konversation!

Skit i att svara på deras inlägg. Dom är så jävla uppblåsta och fulla med skit så en bonde hade anställt dom direkt.

Jokehim, du gör ett bra jobb. Att vi har ett dåligt spelarunderlag har med aktiviteten bland oss alla att göra, inte att du faktiskt tar ut det bästa vi har.

Visa att vi är enade i frågan och ignorera dom, finns inga vinnare i en sån här argumentation.

You don´t understand that no one is really interested in running our worthless U-21 team. Jokehim is the only candidate, and therefor he is the best candidate. You say he has a responsibility as our U-21 coach to do everything he can to succeed. That´s just not true. If we didn´t have him, we would be doing even worse.

That´s our reality.

You think there would be a big short-term difference if rwystyrk was running our U-21 team? We know he´s great, especially in getting paid on the transfer ;) But I don´t think he´s a supercoach that would do miracles with our U-21.

Would love for him to take over our NT next season though. Build som bridges between the Swedish and Czech community...

We are ok with the way things are. We have a nice competitive national league. Not a team who wins every year and a team which everybody looks up to and are happy to help out when it comes to BBB.

You don´t understand that no one is really interested in running our worthless U-21 team. Jokehim is the only candidate, and therefor he is the best candidate. You say he has a responsibility as our U-21 coach to do everything he can to succeed. That´s just not true. If we didn´t have him, we would be doing even worse.

That´s our reality.

You think there would be a big short-term difference if rwystyrk was running our U-21 team? We know he´s great, especially in getting paid on the transfer ;) But I don´t think he´s a supercoach that would do miracles with our U-21.

Would love for him to take over our NT next season though. Build som bridges between the Swedish and Czech community...

We are ok with the way things are. We have a nice competitive national league. Not a team who wins every year and a team which everybody looks up to and are happy to help out when it comes to BBB.

That's a legit argument. I wrote that I didn't know what his opponents in elections were like in answer to him on our board, I should have mentioned it here again. Somebody has to do it. I still think NT coach should value results over false sense of morale .)

I still can get where that daytrader argument against rw comes from. Yes, he is one of the older teams, yet he started in Div3. It is more about the money Div 1 teams were gettign when salaries were still quite low. I don't play competitively anymore, but I reached Div 1 few times without any day trading and would have build a safe spot there If I would continue with the same hands on effort which I have not tiem and desire anymore (one of my lower leagues companion just played Div 1 finals last season- yup, against rwystyrk).

I don't think he is ready to leave his job when longterm is finally starting to pay off and if he is it is unlikely he would start from scratch somewhere else:-)

it was more competitive before, however those who put NT first focusing on domestic players prevailed and new generation of teams is still catching up a bit.

However we are getting off topic here quickly, I'm ok with continuing in BB-mail of needed.

I still think NT coach should value results over false sense of morale

Reminds me of Italian football reporters, as long as their team is winning, everything is allowed. And no, deciding what effort to play in a simulated basketball game is not really comparable to filming for a penalty.... but its kinda in the same genre and it takes a bit of the fun out of the game.

Btw morale is never true or false, its an opinion.

"The difference between Czech republic and Sweden in this game is less than 300 managers". You can also interpret it as you have more than twice as many users. Then it becomes a huge differenc instead.

"Saying that results don't matter is quitting and sign of a loser." Never said that results does not matter. Just said that I will never play the dirty game of TIE deals because I dislike the idea of them. It has nothing to do with me being weak. I can agree that it can hurt my community to follow that road. And that TIE deals is dirty is my own opinion and you are entitled to disagree with that.

"I would recommend to look up who he is in BB before immediately discarding what he says. ". He is rwystark and what I opposed was his attitude. He accused me of being a crap manager. I have reached quarters once in consolidation cup in three attempts and in another season gone unbeaten in group play. That is not as bad as he reported things. You can do that without TIE deals by the way.

"Jokehim's u21 is among lowest seeded european teams, rwystyrk's NT is reigning continetal champion.". One if the reason for our poor rating is that we have lost too many friendlies. I have usually used our underaged in those matches to prepare owners of them that they will have a U21 player coming season to simply motivate them to keep training. Rating is hugely misleading in BB. Our rating was much better some seasons ago when we did not have a very tough draw in consolidation tourney.

"Rwystyrk shouldn't go here and post what he posted (btw he already appologized) but without Jokehim going on our board crying and calling us out there wouldn't be any foregoing debate."

1) Where did he apologize?
2) I did not cry on your board. I just informed you that your obviously big hero (rwystark) is abusing the Swedish community for no reason, and especially myself then. He had absolutely no reason to come to our board and first start with accusing me of basically being an idiot. That you indirectly defend such behaviour is interesting. If he had to come to our board being rude I at least wanted to inform others about it. I posted two posts in your forum and in a straightly informative way. Still I was told to not spam your board after first message ...

Rwystyrk shouldn't go here and post what he posted (btw he already appologized) but without Jokehim going on our board crying and calling us out there wouldn't be any foregoing debate. I believe a debate should be handled in a thread where it starts (or could be moved somewhere else if it is offtopic and IDs involved are willing to continue there) but it shouldn't be at any cost expanded to other threads. That's to me worse than saying "you are doing it wrong" nontactful way.

I said what Rw did was wrong, dunno what Joke said rly, but that doesnt make Rws behavior right. Anyhow, we even agree here so i will drop that.

Ok, let's make it clear - by breking a deal I mean a situation when someone reaches an agreement woth the other side (no matter who made the initial contact/offer) and do something else, typicali not playing a TIE despite a TIe-TIE agreement. If you thing that's more honourable than keeping promise, then you are a hypocrite.

If you promise person A to hit person B... yea i think it can be ok to not go through with your promise. As i said, a deal between 2 teams will hurt the 3rd team in the group.

Calling someone disgusting is not.

I think you have misunderstood this. Jokehim didnt call your U21-coach disgusting, it was the whole thing about TIE-deals he finds disgusting. I dont think it was meant as an insult, just to clarify his standing. We all know TIE-deals are within the limits.

I don't really know why do you bring up breking agreements the way it suggest czech NT does that. That's very poor from you and shows real moral integrity (or better a parody of that) behind that no agreement regime.

Im sorry if it looked like that, cause that wasnt my intention. I was speaking about breaking deals in general and wasnt thinking about a special NT, i dont remember but perhaps i used Czech as an example... for a NT, not for a dealbreaking NT :)

I can't believe my eyes that you would like to ban agreements while keeping enthusiasm systems at the same time. do you realize there is an outer world beyong BB and people comunicating other ways than BB-Mails too?

Yes i do, and thats why i wrote smth like "dont think about how it would be done, just that everyone would follow it".
Btw, i find it quite interesting that you assume that all (or atleast most) coaches would choose to break the BB-rules incase they choose to make it a rule that no TIE-deals would be made.
Why dont you think people would play by the rules? Do you think people try to hack other NT-coaches accounts just to win a game? :)

I personylla don't care whether enthusiasm is included or not, one of the advantages is that ability to manage it right way is another tactic option giving underdogs a way to close the gap here and there.

I like ent too, and would like to see it stay but forbid TIE-deals. And trust the coaches that they try to play fair.

You never know for sure that it's TIE-TIE and that's important and vital point of that. You have to risk to some extent without that it would be way to predictable. And not just because it's not always to best option to play TIE, although many times it is (even when expecting a certain loss - scores often matters too).

Plus you said that breaking a deal is very bad longterm... so what choice do people have? :s

You wrote "Calling someone disgusting is not. ". I can't interpret that differently than you accusing me of calling your U21 coach disgusting.

This is my response in full to him:
"I think it is pathetic to do enthusiasm agreements. If I was to decide I would have a punishment for any such suggestions.

It is of course tempting to crunch in our match because of your poor suggestion. If I decide to crunch in our match it will not be because of your offer. I am professional enough to take our teams main interest first and not punish someone with such disgraceful offers.

Thankfully there are still just a few teams that asked me during my U21 spell.

On paper your team is stronger than ours so I can't really see why I would benefit from a TIE deal by the way. Would you have asked me for a TIE deal if you had my team as well? Very sure you would not have done so.

Not going to wish you good luck in the qualifiers ..."

I suggest that both you and rwystark reads that and tell me what in the response that is insultive towards your U21 coach or that motivates as heavy reaction as you both have had.

I call the suggestion disgraceful. Nowhere can I see something that is insultive towards the user. So please don't accuse me of being insultive to someone when it is incorrect.