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Tanking

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From: Kukoc

This Post:
00
218937.416 in reply to 218937.415
Date: 7/3/2012 9:54:46 AM
Overall Posts Rated:
13361336
I'm sure it comes as a shock to you. But there are actually facts in this game. Amazing isn't it.
Unlike so many places in the internet, there are no anonymous posts here.

This Post:
44
218937.417 in reply to 218937.122
Date: 7/3/2012 11:05:52 AM
Overall Posts Rated:
372372
Tanking is a very important topic to many users at the moment. There's been 416 posts in here to date and many different opinions and suggestions discussed, yet there's only been 1 post from a BB in this time. Considering how important the issue of tanking is (and the fact that you've also identified it as an issue) it would be nice to see some discussion and thoughts from the BBs.

Surely communicating with the users in here on this issue could only benefit you?

From: SM

This Post:
44
218937.419 in reply to 218937.414
Date: 7/3/2012 2:30:17 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
9494
Seriously, this get's thrown out as a fact in forums too often now. Can anyone actually show me a team that has successfully come back to divI and instantly win a championship there aswell?


Well said. In the USA, I’ve observed many teams tank, but I have yet to see a single one become more successful than they were prior to tanking - let alone win a championship.

In a game that's all about trade-offs, it's logical that the strategy with the most short-term sacrifice should yield the most long-term success. Tanking is a valid, popular strategy, but it's far from dominant. It worries me that the BBs are concerning themselves with issues like this rather than developing features that would actually make the game more enjoyable (team jerseys, for instance).

From: squirrel

To: SM
This Post:
11
218937.420 in reply to 218937.419
Date: 7/3/2012 3:29:30 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
2323
While the concerns of DI teams are one thing, don't look at it through only that lens.

I recently saw one team intentionally tank 2 seasons in DV. 4 seasons later they are on the verge of promotion to DII, after making the playoffs in their first year in DIII.

So the notion that the strategy isn't dominant or that effective, simply isn't true particularly in the lower divisions, but it does have limits at the upper.

This Post:
00
218937.421 in reply to 218937.11
Date: 7/3/2012 3:52:59 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
1818
They're really need a better draft system.

From: SM

This Post:
00
218937.422 in reply to 218937.420
Date: 7/3/2012 4:50:36 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
9494
I hope I didn’t imply that tanking isn't effective. It’s a delicate balance. Tanking should be and is a viable tactic, if tanking consistently made teams worse there would be a much larger issue. However, I don’t think it’s by any means the best strategy a team can pursue.

This Post:
00
218937.423 in reply to 218937.421
Date: 7/3/2012 4:59:26 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
699699
So we are back to a previous point.

Many teams tank because they have blown up financially.
Old roster, no cash = TANK.

From: tough

To: SM
This Post:
00
218937.424 in reply to 218937.422
Date: 7/3/2012 5:08:04 PM
Mountain Eagles
III.1
Overall Posts Rated:
864864
Second Team:
Ric Flair Drippers
Yeah sure, but tanking leads to teams quiting. Teams not buying supporter. And teams getting filthy rich and splurge around, get players and in 2 seasons' time they're on their way to back-to-back championship. We don't like that. There's been hundreds of post here to show it. And I hate tanking.

3 Time NBBA Champion. Certified Trainer. Mentor. Have any questions? Feel free to shoot me a BB-Mail!
From: Tangosz

This Post:
22
218937.425 in reply to 218937.424
Date: 7/3/2012 6:34:52 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
573573
... get players and in 2 seasons' time they're on their way to back-to-back championship. We don't like that. There's been hundreds of post here to show it. And I hate tanking.


This is what I really want objective evidence of. How many teams who tank (meeting whatever definition would garner any proposed penalty) actually go on to substantially improve their team to the point of dominating multiple levels of competition? It's an honest question, and I really don't know the answer to it. My gut tells me that this isn't quite as common as it's generally accepted. But my gut, glorious as it may be, isn't objective evidence either. But it's clearly true that whether or not tanking actually leads to better results down the road, the perception definitely is such that tanking does so.

And like SM said, I agree that tanking should be a possible strategy, one that can be good in the long run for a team to pursue. Now, I don't want it to lead to teams that are overwhelmingly powerful. But if the difficult and boring time spent tanking yields an overall benefit that makes a middle of the road team stronger, then I have to give some credit to the manager who spent the time and dedication on that strategy.

Overall though I do agree that having multiple teams tank in the same league makes for kinda a boring season. Once it's clear that there's a tanking team in your division, then there's a big incentive to tank yourself, just to a lesser degree than the other team. That race to the bottom seems to lead to a big disparity in the top teams in the league who are aiming for promotion, and the tanking teams. A bit more competition throughout would be welcome I think.

I tend to favor some combination of various remedies discussed here:

-a slight increase in the player salary floor. I'd leave it at 60% of TV money in D5, but the rest I would increase one step (i.e.m D3/4 would be at 100% of salary floor, D2 is 120% of TV contract, and D1 is 140%).

-an increased penalty for multiple forfeits. I'd say that the 4rd forfeit gets you the same penalty as relegation does, and lasts the remainder of the season

-an increased penalty for suffering multiple blowout losses. I think the 4th loss of 40 points or more gets you the relegation penalty for the rest of the season.

I suspect that in response to changes like these, the perception that tanking is beneficial would be reduced. Teams who tank in order to train young players could still do it, and try and come back stronger on home grown talent. The other teams who tank for purely financial reasons would at least try to do enough to avoid the penalties, and thus field better, more competitive teams on average. Teams could still 'throw' a few league games to continue competing in the Cup.

I think crucial in a system like this, or any system that will penalize tanking, is that the negative aspects are made abundantly clear to all managers. So, in the 'adaptive' system like my earning the relegation penalty for a certain number of forfeits/blowouts, the manager needs to be alerted to how many forfeits they've made, and how many more they have before the penalty starts. If it's a more opaque system, such as the "4th place really is better than 5th place" scenario we currently have, it will fail. It won't adequately change managers' behavior.



This Post:
00
218937.426 in reply to 218937.425
Date: 7/3/2012 6:42:39 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
926926
Objective evidence:

Season 17 - Flash Mashers lost the relegation series and were relgated from league USA III.1
Season 18 - Flash Mashers were crowned champions of league USA IV.22
Season 19 - Flash Mashers made the playoffs of USA III.1 (I was top seed in the whole league but got shot down by late season injuies)

It's very possible to do it at the D2/D3 level where it is still beneficial.























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