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That is a successful threat, I'd say :-)

Well the way I see it things are pretty easy:

1) BB is not real-world basket therefore saying that DT should be totally banished because it does not exist in real life is not a good argument

2) Nevertheless, every internet game is inspired by real life, so I think it should be a minimum realistic.

3) the question is: does DT bring any added-value to the game?

Yes: because it keeps the market alive
No: because it is not normal that a team changes 50 players a year without any consequence...

4) So my opinion:
- DT should not disappear (if you manage to buy a player for a ridiculous amount you should be able to sell him for a profit and get rewarded financially) but incentives should be given to managers to keep the players they just bought:

a) drop of enthusiasm (or why not create a new element called "team chemistry" for instance?) if you sell too many players within a given period (players do not know which teammates they will have in their next game, they might be afraid they are going to be the next to leave the club = team chemistry will not be as good)

. if we want to reduce DT profits (because some managers, for instance students, have a lot of time to spend on the market while others are working) we could change the system: instead of getting 80% of the sell price why not get x% (50, 60, 80 or whatever) of the profit (profit: if you sell for 300 a player you bought for 100 the profit would be 200. You will get back whatever you spent + some more)

I´m wondering what the BBs think about that. I think this idea is worth to think about it seriously. Maybe there are problems the BBs see, we don´t see. But I think this could be a way to make BB better. And BB is great so far :)

Stop to say that DT is impossible to do if you aren't a wizard of BB cause that's not the true. It could be funny for someone to trade players, that's ok to keep the possibility to trade but now it's too easy.

Are you calling me a dumber than dunb man??
hmm, I'd almost think you do, since I am not smart enough to DT at the moment, it is too hard for me, if not, I'd be doing it...
Just to let you know.
I have just a little bid more time then you only working 9 hours a day, so I regularly check out the TL, but I can't seem to be able to make nice deals, not even 1 in 3 weeks, and more!!
Maybe if the ones who are so against it (mostly because they think it is unfair because they don't have, or want, to spend the time for it) should look on the TL more often they would see it is truely difficult, and even the ones with enough time (me, for example) can not just do it that easely...

Maybe thats true. If you don´t forbit DT, someone will find a way to make a lot of profit. But I don´t think the BBs will forbit DT, so I´m searching for other solutions.

so..
if
the income of the arenas becomes WAY more important
AND is related to the wins and losses (what it is right now)
AND to the fan enthusiasm

AND the wins and losses are related to the team enthusiasm
(very hard part, because DT should still have chances to win matches)
AND the team enthusiasm is related to the numbers of transfers
AND the fan enthusiasm is related to the numbers of transfers

THAN
Daytraders will lose more games because team enthusiasm
Daytraders will lose fan enthusiasm
Daytraders will lose money from the arenas

(AND
If its necessary, you can raise the transfer fees)

So and if still some DT makes a lot of more money, as the champion ship winners without daytrading. Well, maybe they are just crazy and whatever, if they really want to spent so many time for trading - I feel sorry for them. Poor guys.

oh it is much, much more easy to get daytrading out of the system.

Tranfer agent fees are 100% for the first week, then it is lowered with 5% each week.
When a manager buys a player, in 99% of the times it is only for 1 of 2 reasons, either he wants him for his team, to perform, or to be trained, or he wants to make a profit out of him. In the first case we can asume that it is in the manager's mind to keep this player at least 1 season, in the other case we can asume he wants to get his money asap, since every wek the wage is lowering the profit.
So with this simple and easy to acheieve new rule, day trading will stop entirely, because you take away wath is daytraded for (the profit).

Since it is so easely achieved, and it is not done, maybe we can assume that BB does not want to get rid of DT?
In fact by tweaking these % of agent fees, they have a real fine-tuning tool to regulate DT. They cut me off entirely, others still seem to be able to DT, but be sure the BBs are watching this closely, and they decide how 'bad' DT can get, and if necessary, they will alter these % until they have the result they like.
So everyone can go ahead and keep this thread alive for 10 more years whining about DT, and fairness, and profits, and time, and efforts, and finding out genius ways in 100-fold tiny alterations to the rules to cut out DT, and, and, and...
What I wanted to say was: It's not gonna do much.

Now let's all get off each other's backs, and leave every manager the opportunity to play the game as they like to play it. If not, I'll be the next to whine that it is unfair that others have more time than me to scout their opponents, and thereby can set better tactics than I do, thus winning more games,and that simply is UNFAIR!

Its just one sugestion, but the point is, we have find a way to keep daytrading alive AND create other ways to be sucessful aswell. And it shouldn´t be possible to use both ways in one time,so they should be releated to each other

the problem is indeed the balance. now things are quite unbalanced concerning trading vs training

hm, I doubt that even if there is a balance the complaints will stop. As long as there are people who are jealous of the profit which is made by DT-ing, there will be complaints. Money made by DT-ing is additional to all other money made by teams (like training), and that is the reason why the ones who either don't have the time, or the skill, or are to lazy can not make this kind of extra money, and it will always be critisized.

If in some way BB finds out how to balance the money input for a team versus a DT-ing team, then DT will also simply stop, since DT-ers will not make the effort anymore while they can't gain something from it...
If like you say there is balance between trading, and training (if possible at all), nobody will trade anymore, because it is far more easy to train...

I like they way you think, I just doubt it is realistic it will ever be succesfully achieved.

Now let's all get off each other's backs, and leave every manager the opportunity to play the game as they like to play it

I don´t want to restart the DT discussion, but LoD, thats exactly that what I think. And imo we are forced to use DT to be competitive against DT. And I wanna be sucessful.

Whatever.

I don´t want to restart the DT discussion, but LoD, thats exactly that what I think. And imo we are forced to use DT to be competitive against DT. And I wanna be sucessful.

I think this is quite a negative look...

I do not use DT, I also did not need DT to be able to be succesfull.
I DT-ed for a small period of time in the begining when it indeed was very easy to do, and estimated it gave me about 300k of profit. Other profit came from buying players, training them up, and selling them relatively fast, but that is NOT daytrading. I also had 1 time I bought a player to use, and then listed him for a big amount because he was realy good and I decided that if someone else wanted him they'd have to pay enough. He got sold right away, and I actually felt real bad that I lost my best player. Practically this is DT, because I sold him again after buying him, but I had no intention to sell him again anythime soon at the time I bought him, so...in my opinion DT is just buying the player only to sell him again, and I bought him to play.
Anyway, it actually does not realy matter, what I want to say is: I had a full season of 140k wages behind me, and be sure this took all the profit I made from trading away, and more. I did not have this aomount of players because I was DT, because if so, I'd sell them much more quickly. I just felt confident having 25 to 30 players available to field in any given situation. Since this season I systematically lowered this amount of players by firing some and selling some, because frankly, it is not worth the money to be able to field so many. The clue is, I had more expenses from extra wages compared to normal teams than I earned with DT-ing, and still I have a succesfull team.
Nobody has to DT to be able to get a succesfull team. Being able to get a succesfull team FASTER, is something else, ofcourse when you make extra money, you go faster! But if you compare teamprogress/time spend , I'm almost sure non-daytraders will get a higher rate! so it's all relative.

As for me personally, I wouldn't even mind if a BB flipped a coin and let it decide if DT should be banished or not, I truly do not care. But I don't think they have that luxury, they will need to be carefull with the steps they take and the thing they do with their game, and I am truly curious as to what road they will walk with DT-ing.

It isn't buying a player to sell him that anyone has a problem with. The problem comes when are buying and selling absurd numbers of players on a daily basis.

Trading is a good and viable part of the game economics, it just shouldn't be the only part that matters.

Look, we are supposed to manage everything the game offers to be successful right? When you can earn money in the millions by doing nothing but trading you have no need to worry about anything else. You don't need to train because you can succesively buy better players. You don't need to build an arena because you don't need ticket revenue. You don't even need to worry about things like trying to make sure you win TV games. You can carry a better bench than other teams, giving you a batter shot at the cup.

As a manager game you are supposed to have to manage all aspects of the game with skill. If the market is set up so that someone can make enough money that no other aspect of the game is difficult then it is no longer a basketball management game, it becomes a agme of who can work the market best.

People keep arguing that daytraders have to still know how to set up a lineup and tactics and things like that but this is ridiculous. So what? You still have a huge advantage over those without the time to daytrade because you can buy a better roster without worryiong about how to allocate funds.

I think that the ability to make a profit on the market is an important part of the game, but it should not outweigh other aspects of the game.

Also, if it takes sooo much skill to daytrade, as has been argueds repeatedly, then capping the number of trades would still leave you skilled traders with an advantage because you would use your alloted number of trades more efficiently.

I agree with you here 100% !


Still I have something to react to. ;)
If a player does not need to think or worry about anything, just making millions of $ by DT, how fun is the game then? I know how much I'd love to play if it did not matter how I put my line-ups, I'm sure I'd already stopped playing.

Let them be, and let them win championships year after year, after 3 seasons they grow tired of it and quit. Yes another team will come along and take his place, and quit too, eventually you will be among teams in your country who know you, see you, scout your progresses, will get to know you as a steady value in the game, you will get their respect, even though you might never be able to win anything big because capitalists get into they way, the ones popping their team in their midsts by DT-ing and falling out of the game after a few seasons of no-fun-being-champion will not get their respect, and will be quickly forgotten.

What are we all playing for?
The championship? the cup? I think not, we all play to be respected by others, how others awe over our teams. Yes we all strive for the championship, and maybe the cup, but only because it will make others think waaaw, he made it! do you think they will feel the same about someone who did not give a thing about the tactics, but just DT-ed his way up there without anything else? Guess not, so don't be jealous, play your own game, and be proud of what you accomplish, and the respect from others you earn! It is like buying friendship, I don't think anyone has become truely happy by doing this, it's the ones with true love and friendship for each other who experience happyness, some things can't be bought !

Obviously some people are making a small mint on day-trading. I'm not necessary against that...but I guess you have to ask a question about what you want BB to be.

Is it a basketball simulation where the best teams are those who understand basketball and acquire/train/draft players and play tactics in a superior manner to their opponents, win games.

Or is it an economic simulation (some might argue that HT has gone too far down this path [not necessarily me though]), where those that manage the economics of the game are able to buy better players/pay higher salaries and win games.

Of course, unless you do away with all money, there is some balance between these two approaches. But certain rules and decisions mean you move more toward one than the other.

Steve
Bruins

Last edited by Solana_Steve at 4/16/2008 6:51:14 PM